SteveH Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 It is down to the organisers as to who they encourage to come along, how they set the tone of the day and then how they deal with any transgressions along the way. You can't guarantee zero risk but as has been suggested above, car to car incidents are extremely rare on well run days and it's always going to be safer than driving on the road! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
housebeautician Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 The days i have been on have always been well marshalled and can say from experience that i have never seen any thing really naughty on track. Got to say on my last outing i got two ear hole bashings for holding up a car and for overtaking near a bend (Long story and had no option). Think i prefer the days without the superfast cars as they do seem to catch you out at times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hilux Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 To be fair, I've NEVER seen car on car contact at a track day (and I've been doing them for 10 years now) - seen plenty of spins/accidents but you can tell the cars which are going to be trouble from the way they look and/or are driven and just give yourself a bit of room round about them and wait until a nice long straight and whizz past them (in most cases they are much slower than a westie...).I've also never lost grip because of fluids spilt by another participant (whereas I have lost grip on the public roads lots of times due to oil/diesel spills). I'd still maintain that driving on a track day is many many times safer than hooning on a public road. What he said I've been doing track days for donkeys years and the amount of old `uns that break down are no worse than new `uns and the amount of shiney deposits on track are the same for new and old in my experience. Equally its all down to the drivers as I`ve been lane blocked by Cateringvans and Arial Atoms in my Porker and Golf (goodness me............. ) Finally, never seen a collision but I`d imagine (from seeing a couple of near misses) its usually the car behind running into a cornering car as overtaking in a corner is a black flag on all ones I`ve been on. Its all about awareness and small racing mirrors aint big enough to spot the drivers off line behind you need to turn your head and look if in any doubt. If you have any doubts about tracking a car please dont go to any that I`m at Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stu999 Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 So what defines a 'banger'? And if some form of mechanical check was required, how far does it go? Never judge a book by its cover and all that... Having done literally thousands of track day miles, 'bangers' IME do not cause any more hassle through breakdowns, bad driving etc than any other genre of car. What they do cause is annoyance to the 'track exotica' when they are want to pass though!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephenh Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 I've done several trackdays at Oulton, and had almost no issues with tin tops, old bangers or not. I've been baulked more on Westfield trackdays at Mallory, in fact. :( It is all about everybody using their mirrors (or not!) As for car to car collisions, it is in my experience usually quite clear who is likely to loose control when you are following them, so don't sit on their tail into corners, just hang back enough that you can brake and swerve if necessary. Then if they are slower than you, take them on the main straight. If it is a faster car than you, then make it clear you are happy for them to overtake on the first straight available, that way they don't get frustrated. Oh, and did I say use your mirrors? :t-up: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Verona Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 Hammy was raising the issue of people in not very expensive cars, he called them "bangers" who may not be too worried if the cars got damaged. The implication was they may drive more reckless than someone who did not want there pride and joy damaged. He said " but worry if the owners of such cars as those shown on the site would have the conviction to the rules and be concerned about not scratching their cars." He wasn't saying he'd seen anyone driving recklessly, baulked other drivers or done anything that broke rules. He was raising, what seemed to him, a valid issue of people taking cheap cars (he called them "bangers") on track days and if this may lead to people who wouldn't care if the car was written off driving in a manner that you or I (or Hammy) wouldn't. I have no idea if Hammy is correct, but it sounds feasible. He is not talking about the past, he's talking about the future if little or no control over cars used on trackdays is here to stay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hammy Posted June 7, 2012 Author Share Posted June 7, 2012 Just so Mr Lunatic, here is one of the cars , maybe fine -but I would not trust that grill held by a couple of self tappers. Last years tax too.. I'm not sure of the answer or if one is needed, but a worthy discussion thus far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Verona Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 Hammy, I understand what you were saying. I assume with the current economic climate that track day organisers are finding it harder to fill the days they have on offer. In most business this leads to a reduction in standards/service. This maybe the way track days go in future. As someone said above, the rich boys who were hooning about were not chastised let alone stopped due to their regular business. Safety always comes second to profit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Chairman Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 I knew what you were getting at and tried to answer in the same vein. Unfortunately, the thread seems to have got taken as a dig at cheaper cars and their drivers. That wasn't what was meant at all. I've got mates too, who like to use old £300 or £400 E30 325 BMW's, for a great, surprisingly nippy, rear drive, very cheap track day car. They wouldn't dream of hooliganing it, and the cars are well looked after, if hard driven. (Likewise I know a few people who I've turned down hot track day laps with in six figure exotica, cause they're animals behind the wheel, certainly wouldn't go out on track at the same time as them) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stu999 Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 Hammy was raising the issue of people in not very expensive cars, he called them "bangers" who may not be too worried if the cars got damaged. The implication was they may drive more reckless than someone who did not want there pride and joy damaged. He said " but worry if the owners of such cars as those shown on the site would have the conviction to the rules and be concerned about not scratching their cars." He wasn't saying he'd seen anyone driving recklessly, baulked other drivers or done anything that broke rules. He was raising, what seemed to him, a valid issue of people taking cheap cars (he called them "bangers") on track days and if this may lead to people who wouldn't care if the car was written off driving in a manner that you or I (or Hammy) wouldn't. I have no idea if Hammy is correct, but it sounds feasible. He is not talking about the past, he's talking about the future if little or no control over cars used on trackdays is here to stay. But to expand on what I am saying - what defines a 'banger', or cheap car? And more to the point, just because you and I may think it a 'banger', doesn't mean to say that the car in question *is* the pride and joy to the owner in question. Even the pic Hammy has posted above - (sadly, IMO) that is possibly someone's pride and joy! And they might have scrimped and saved to enjoy the one track day they can afford this year... My car is a cheap throwaway banger to some. As is Hammy's, as is yours. To me, as others have said, it doesn't matter what turns up for action - it is up to the TD organiser to ensure the day runs as expected... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Verona Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 it is up to the TD organiser to ensure the day runs as expected... Stu, the implication was that the TD organiser wasn't keeping up standards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pistol Pete Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 There was an artical in autocar (i think) promoting buying cheap cars £250 price range, doing a couple of track days then scrapping them. I would have thought the td organizer would step in if they get a rep for stopped sessions and bad driving - especially with the powers of the internet. Only done a couple of td but was advised to use msv or some of the owner club lotus on track, mazda etc as they tend to be a little more fussy about their cars. Not sure what they think of someone turning up in a plastic self built car though :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markcoopers Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 I have seen car on car contact at a track day. But in the end it comes down to having enought space and talent and in a group of people of similar speeds. Decent operators will operate novice only days and or session novices so that it is safe for all, regardless of the car they drive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveH Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 Novice days and especially short novice sessions are amongst the most likely type of trackday to have incidents in my experience. Why would anyone want to go out on track for the first time surrounded by equally inexperienced drivers? Speed differentials are rarely a problem so long as drivers use their mirrors, the most likely time for two cars to come together is when a car is being overtaken by a very slightly faster car and does not help it to get by or when that slower car decides he can manage the little bit of extra pace to stay ahead and then drops it straight into the path of the following car. All IMHO obviously! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s2rrr Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 From the track days I have attended as an honorary mechanic it is apparent to me that there are numerous levels of cars and drivers. No matter whether the vehicle costs a fortune or a pittance it can and should be well maintained in the areas of brakes, steering, suspension, seat belts, general mechanical integrity. They could be driven by a novice or an expert both of whom could be total idiots or considerate experienced and quick drivers. It is not correct to assume that all expensive cars are driven by the wealthy but clueless few, in fact the last track day I was at had a really nice Lambo and the driver took out one of our group for a few laps, he seemed a decent enough guy from what I was told, can't comment on his driving. There were also some older cars a couple of which managed to burn out there brakes fairly significantly and one incident where one car blew its engine on track and a following motor became embroiled in a large accident, colateral damage only no personal injuries apart from pride and pocket book. I have seen, being a garage lurker too many cars which have obviously not been checked over thoroughly before the event. Yes items can break on track unexpectedly and incidents do and will happen. One memorable incident from my first visit was when a friend let his girl friend drive his motor and when she came back into the garage a race suited chappie was giving him and her a fairly strong verbal. It transpires he was an instructor in a Porche and she was in front, he wanted to get passed on a bend and wasn't happy with her. He should have backed off and waited for her to move over then overtaken on the straight. He did have 3 or 4 times her bhp. His attitude stank and I was almost about to intervene but just asked the question was she in front and was it on a bend. He disappeared, whilst I can understand his point of view a newby has enough to contend with without tw*ts like that. He was a newby once or maybe he was born as Jensen or Lewis. . From some of the emergency work we see going on in the pits it is apparent that some failures are waiting to happen and should have been fixed well before flying around a track at warp factor 9. Apart from the one shunt I haven't really seen many cases of contact between cars and the organisers have been very good. They don't ask for any roadworthiness checks although the cars are supposed to be. I don't want to suggest scrutineers checks as that would reduce the availability. I will also say they are very strict with noise and have also pulled a few cars for liquid losses, they are doing there best. Some of the older collectors cars just fly around all day and are very reliable and obviously well maintained others are just driven in ragged to death then driven home. Its the unmaintained cars which will have more issues and when driven by an inexperienced or red mist driver could cause an almost foreseeable incident. Long may track days continue in as safe a manner as practicable. Personal observations only I'm afraid. Bob I'll put my crash hat on now and wait for the shock waves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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