Turning A Perfectly Good Zetec Into A Firebreathing S2000 Build Thread

[Norman Verona]

Tim, don't get too despondent we've all done similar dangler-ups. In fact some of mine have been even more costly!

 

What I don't understand is what the engine builder did that doesn't make him responsible. Unless all he had was the head.

 

My advice is to get a complete set of gaskets and big end and main crankshaft bearings. Clean the oilways in the crank out washing the crank in paraffin or petrol then use a high pressure airline to blow through the oilways. Do the same to the conrods. Then pull the rods and closely inspect the pistons and bore surface. Best remove the cams and clean the oilways in them. Do the same to the oil gallery which feeds the cams and the main gallery from pump to filter. In fact flush and blow out every oilway there is.

 

We have a gite free so if you have a few days spare and want to bring it over here just shout.

[SteveD]

tim it cant be detination , that happens to the pistons and head in the chamber ,your metal contamination is in the oil this means its nothing to do with detination more a failure of a bearing or pump, big ends.liitle ends, thrust bearings or whatever but not detination

you need to fully understand things before you tackle it

[Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Chairman]

Unfortunately I suspect you might be right on the "what came first" route as far as the engine builder is concerned.

 

But I would at least talk to the engine builder first before tearing too much apart. You never know, they might be willing to meet part way, or at least give a professional appraisal of it.

[Speed Freak]

thanks steve.

The reason I came to that, was that a piston had slight scoring on the top- probably from the foreign object that was on top of it, this in turn had probably cause the metal that cam into the engine in the first place??? maybe-

detonation was mentioned before when I posted pics of the piston heads... that's why I thought of that-maybe the detonation caused the tops of pistons to score, and hence the metal? Either way, if its not that, Im almost happy-as im running a standard ecu Id have trouble sorting out timing issues. 

Well I gues we'll see when the bottoms off whether its bearings or not..

[Speed Freak]

Unfortunately I suspect you might be right on the "what came first" route as far as the engine builder is concerned.

 

But I would at least talk to the engine builder first before tearing too much apart. You never know, they might be willing to meet part way, or at least give a professional appraisal of it.

thanks, yeh I did plan on talking to him- who knows, he might feel sorry for me, and agree to come over and check on me (he lives local)-maybe even get his hands dirty one evening or so... the cleaning of it wont be an issue-this engine WILL BE SPOTLESS WHEN IM FINISHED WITH IT! But putting the head back on, is a bit scary-I was present when it was done last time, and its not all that straight forward... cams with lobes and pins in them, and bridges etc etc, then the pulleys need to line up etc etc... basically Im just worried to make any mistakes again-

lets just see whats up first-maybe its already too late...

[Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Chairman]

I'm not necessarily advocating you do this, just trying to give an example...

 

(I should add, I'm also a bout OCD about engine cleanliness internally)

 

When I'm rebuilding an engine of unknown origin, or that's had an "issue", (such as when my crank thrust bearing was destroyed by oil surge under braking), I'll strip it down completely to component level.

 

Ill then take the now bear block and head castings, remove all the oil way bungs, (and if its a new to me engine, core plugs and water way bungs too), and put both major castings through the parts washer. (Mines only manual I should add, standard Machine Mart fare). I'll clean out all oil ways drillings, brings etc with gun barrel cleaning style brushes. 

 

I'll usually then ditch the cleaning solution, refill and put both block and head through again. I use an air line to blow them clean and dry each time.

 

Any machine work, cleaning up of threads with a tap etc is sorted next, I'll always get the machine shop to put the part through their own washer. But then repeat the clean once I get the part home.

 

All the engine internals then go through the parts washer while the castings are away, again, any threaded items cleaned up and the part put through the washer again.

 

I hate having machine work done on messy components, there's too many grot traps that metal shard and swarf can get trapped in. I'm sure the automated washers that most machine shops seem to use are good, but they won't always get all the crap out from all the drillings without some manual assistance from a brush or a high pressure line. Unless you paying top whack for a rebuild you may not get all the care and attention to detail...

 

Last time I took an engine block to be rebored I stuck it in the boot of the car. Dropped it off, went to pick it up a few hours later and had an oh b******* moment. I'd not thought, you could handle it without getting a mark on your hands when I'd left it, so I'd forgotten to put any old blankets or anything in the back of the two month old Beemer lease car. 

[Speed Freak]

hummmm. not sure if anyone here has got a parts washer- I didn't even see one at the engine builders place-but maybe he had it out of sight...

I was thinking of simply using syringes to squirt petrol/paffafin down awkward places, and a toothbrush for the rest- will this not be sufficient?

 

can I assume that if my rod end bearings or big end bearings have had it, that I will also have to fit new rods/crank-as they will most likely deform wont they?

God I hope this hasn't happened, as a new crank and rods will cost more than a second hand engine-

[SteveD]

tim if its that bad it will be easier and cheaper to buy another engine and fit that , i know of a person at the moment that is/was struggling to find a crank and rods for a s2000

[Speed Freak]

yeh youre probably right. The only reasonable way would be to get them from America. mahle do pistons for standard s2000 lined cylinders (the only make that does them other than oem), and inlinepro do a crank... Hondas prices are ridiculous in Europe-America everythings about a 1/3 of cost. even with postage and import tax it still works out about 60% of price. 

even still-I probably would change engine if the crank and rods are scorned.

the fact that no metal is in the vtec solenoid is defo a good sign. All the bad cases on s2ki have shown lots of metal debri all over the shop- my quantities of metal are very low in comparison. lets just hope then-

I did find a couple of curly bits of metal in the oil, almost like the thread off a bolt but smaller-any ideas where it could come from? why curly?simply due to heat?

[Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Chairman]

Hard to say without looking at everything, reasonable chance in might be limited to the bottom end from what you say; it's got drawn through the pump, into ds tank, brought back through pump into filter...

 

That is of course hopeful speculation!

 

I'm not sure if the F20 is different due to VTEC gubbins, but otherwise, it's relatively common for incoming oil to go through the big end bearings first, before getting up to the top end. So it's always possible that debris may have either been stopped at the filter, or got as far as some of the bearings and not got further.

[Norman Verona]

Take it apart before trying to guess what the damage is. I doubt very much, given the low mileage, that it will need crank and/or rods.

 

As Steve says it's not detonation as any metal from pistons will go out the exhaust not into the oil. The only way it can get into the oil is if there's a hole in the piston.

 

By the way, we don't have to know each other for you to come here for a few days. You're not going to be sleeping with me! 

[Speed Freak]

yeh will do. camera is charged, so when I get chance will take some piccies.

 

 

the piston.

 

By the way, we don't have to know each other for you to come here for a few days. You're not going to be sleeping with me! 

lol.

thanks again for the offer. If only I had the time... up until 2 weeks ago I had all the time in the world, as wasn't back at work- typical I suppose.

Will bear your kind offer in mind though.

many thanks

 

 

 

oh I forgot to mention....- I found some liquid gasket in the oil and on the sump pan plug mesh.... not loads, but enough to worry me slightly- maybe 3 pieces each about 10mm x 2mm in size....

something to be concerned about?

[SteveD]

yeh will do. camera is charged, so when I get chance will take some piccies.

 

 

lol.

thanks again for the offer. If only I had the time... up until 2 weeks ago I had all the time in the world, as wasn't back at work- typical I suppose.

Will bear your kind offer in mind though.

many thanks

 

 

 

oh I forgot to mention....- I found some liquid gasket in the oil and on the sump pan plug mesh.... not loads, but enough to worry me slightly- maybe 3 pieces each about 10mm x 2mm in size....

something to be concerned about?

you or they should not use liquid gasket you should use the propa stuff its called honda seal ,it goes rock hard and does not get into the engine like instant gasket etc that stay soft , 80% of the engine uses honda seal instead of gaskets

[Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Chairman]

I'd be concerned if it had restricted flow, or worse still broken up and made it through the mesh...

 

sounds like you've got an "odd" compared to old fashioned fixed cam engines with the VTEC unit, where with the engine already under a great deal of load, you can have a sudden demand of a big surge of oil pressure "diverted" to the VTEC valveing. If flow is impeded somewhere, I would suspect possible oil starvation. Or does it simply not trigger the VTEC mechanism if there's insufficient extra pressure?

 

So presumably your engine builder used the liquid gasket?

[Norman Verona]

That's why I don't use silicone or liquid gaskets. This may well be the reason for the reduction in oil pressure. A lump of tht in an oil gallery may be the problem. As you still had oil pressure and hadn't revved the engine for prolonged periods there may be no damage from this. The swarf may have been there from before. 

 

Clearly the engine builder used the liquid gasket. If he's a "proper" business he will be insured for faulty workmanship. You have nothing to lose in hold him responsible, nicely though. At first!