What's the difference in cost

[Mark449]

Between building a Hayabusa engined westy as opposed to say a 16V vaux engined one?

The difference in price between a SEiW starter kit and a Mega starter ain't much, but I'm sure there must be lots of hidden costs between the  2 projects.

Obviously a Busa engine costs a lot more but I see you can

get a Busa engine for £3k. Does it need modifying much i.e. clutch or anything?

How much is a transfer box?

[Blatman]

I personally am still not convinced about bike engines in cars, BUT, I've never tried one, or had to live with one. I don't much fancy the prospect either, and I've been a biker all my life, so it's not that I'm unfamiliar with bike engine workings and maintainence.............

However.........

Buy a car engine from the scrappers (500 quid), blow the remaining 2.5K (from your 3K "engine budget") on it, and you'll have the 'Busa licked for power to weight, I reckon.

OTOH, if you want a bike engine, get an electric reverse, rather than a mechanical reverse (I assume that's what you mean by transfer box..........).

Hidden costs are the bane of kit car builders lives, and they are universally unavoidable, so I don't think that choosing a car engine over a bike engine is, or vice versa, going to help decrease the liklihood of hidden costs cropping up.......c'est la vie.

Cue Al Yupright/Catflap to shoot me down............    

[Mark449]

Yeah, I've built a Westy before and to be honest it's only the idea of building a bike engine one that has provoked my interest again.

I fancy the having a sequentail 6 speed box and an engine that revs to 15,000 r.p.m. It would be like a mini F1 car!

So forgetting the 'usual' hidden extras, which dogs every kit car build, is there anything apart from a more expensive engine and a transfer box (are they electric?) in price build between the two options?

[Mark Stanton]

I'm with Blatters on this one - BEC are still relatively new (ish) in the kit car world - track wise they seem to be doing quite well - They've being going about 2 years now - and the unknown is, how long do the engines last

[Blatman]

If by transfer box you mean reverse box, there are 2 choices.

Mechanical boxes are reasonably heavy, will drain some horsepower, and have, in the past, been a bit of a weak point. Electric reverse is taken care of by a starter motor type device, which weigh less, don't sap power, won't leak oil, or vibrate, when the car is being driven forwards, as far as I know.

I guess the short answer to

So forgetting the 'usual' hidden extras, which dogs every kit car build, is there anything apart from a more expensive engine and a transfer box (are they electric?) in price build between the two options?

is that it's anyones guess. It depends on how good you are at sourcing parts, and how handy you are with a set of spanners/power tools/fabrication. In the end, there probably isn't much difference, until you've blown up a 150bhp bike engine, and have to source a new one. At that point, a car engine would (have been) the cheaper option........

And before all the BEC boys jump on me, I'm not suggesting that bike engines are more unreliable, but they do seem to need greater care in the speccing of complimentary components in order to achieve some long term reliabilty, IMO.

P'raps some questions to the BEC group on Yahoo would yield a little more info, and they'd certainly have the latest info on dry sumps, reverse boxes and the like. Search the forum for the url, 'cos I've posted it up elsewhere in the last 48 hours......

[Mark449]

Cheers Blatman, I've found the BEC group.

Why do you necessarily believe that a bike engine designed by Honda would be less reliable/prone to breakages than say a Ford Zetec?

Is it because of the extra loads put them by the additional weight? i.e. doing something they are not designed for.

Do you have to uprate the clutch?

[Blatman]

I think the extra weight, along with extra drivetrain (including clutch) stress is a concern (for me), especially when using sticky tyres (Yoko AO21's or AO32 R's). Bike engines are light, and clutches are small because Mr Honda/Suzuki, etc had a design brief who's specs never included a 100% increase in mechanical grip (two rear tyres, not one, plus LSD.......), and a max weight for the bike (2 up, plus camping gear, naturally) of considerably less than the empty car...........I reckon that the clutch must be marginal at the best of times, althought the fact that they seem to work OK means that they obviously have some spare capacity. But how much? And that question could be applied to all the rest of the carry over parts too. Just how close to their design limits are they? Certainly, it's a given that for a 'Busa to survive, it MUST be dry-sumped, and there is a question mark over Blackbird gearboxes, IIRC. So yes, I think asking a bike engine to power a vehicle it was never designed for can lead to longevity/reliability issues. These can be addressed by speccing dry sumps, uprated clutches etc, but I don't think they'll ever be as long lived as the equivalent car parts.

Put it this way (I've just come up with this, so bear with me) would you put a highly tuned race car engine in a 38 tonne truck, and expect it to be able to perform reliably, for thousands of miles, without stressing the little clutch/oil system/gearbox etc.

Better yet, are all the truck racers fitting more powerful, lighter, smaller F1 car engines to their trucks (assuming they had the option)?

I think we know the answer............

[stu999]

I built and raced an Autograss Special for five years powered by a bike motor (the home of the BEC? ), and only suffered two mechanical failiures; both were the gearbox. BUT even though it seems to support the previous posts, I was dishing out serious abuse which I doubt any car type gearbox would take without regular maintainance i.e. clutchless gearshifts, plenty of airborne moments etc. I never had any trouble otherwise, just regular oil changes.

But cost wise, if you are considering a Busa, and intend to 'track' it, then I would strongly advise dry-sumping it, which will probably be half your Busa engine budget again. For 4500 GBP you can have a good VX install with lots of change to spend on tuning goodies. And it will be far less wearing to drive on the road.

I personally think that while the Hyabusa engine is a formidable motor, the asking price is too steep for the potential gains IMHO. The Blade would be my choice if bike power was required, less than half the asking price of the Busa, seems to have very little trouble as regards gearboxes etc, doesnt require dry-sumping, and not too far behind in the power stakes. And they are a lot easier to get hold of if it did grenade!  

As you can probably tell, I cant really choose between the two, both having benefits and disadvantages. Thats why I have nearly completed my VX car, with the other waiting for the Bike conversion! There is really nothing like that bike engined buzz.....

[catflap]

Thanx blatters ill take the floor

Not having build my megablde I am not in the right position to say about hidden costs, mine cost 10k 2 year old, but 13 to build (all new parts and fully reconditiond engine and gear box)

I love it, quite simple.

I only use it for blasting, I have another car for the boring trips, but the blade has a charm that I did not find in other westys (for me that is)

I wanted something that was a little insane, no compromise, no frills, just raw driving experience, I got it with the blade.

I did initially want a busa, but when I did the sums, the busa lump is not worth the extra performance

My logic

Bladde engine 600-800 quid (I bought one for 800 with a garentee see below in a sec) 130bhp (or there abouts)

Busa comes in at 3k (they are hard to find I am told) and require a dry sump that can set you back at least another grand 175bhp (or there about)

The fear of blowing an engine made me side with the blade, as if I blew it, no probs I could plop another in and be driving by the end of the week (lol see below) if the busa went for what ever reason, then it would take me about 6 month so save a SPAIR 4 grand to replace it, I simply don’t have that sort of money (If I did I would defo have the busa)

At donno a few weeks back I blew the above mentioned engine (Don’t know 100% how or why, but it occurred on a corner that required me to down shift twice, and I took the revs out of the rev limiter and just lost power there after) so not a fault of the engine, more my inexperience.

A week later I was due at a track day, 4 days later I had a new engine installed and was ready to go.

Living with it J

Well the noise is spectacular, it screams and screams and screams ( you need to experience it to believe it and its not like being on a bike, on a bike yo have a lid, and you are further away form the zaust, in this, I wear goggles and sit a few feet from it, its awesome, makes me grin every time J.

The 12k red line is all relative, as the thing revs so quick but has little torque its not that much different, form normal car well except it pulls for longer before a new gear change is needed.

The gear change is very fun, sequential six speed box, and clutchless up changes are great fun.

You’ll notice the word FUN crop up a lot in my post (along with the bad spelling LOL) this is because im no racer, I do the odd track day, and back lane blast with my mate and his x flow)

And the car puts a smile on my face every tie I drive (im sure any westy would)

But this car seems to suit my needs, an insane feeling hyper fast super agile car

The noise and rawness make this car feel a lot faster than it probably is, but hay that just means more fun at less dangerous speeds J

If you want any help with anything regarding blade cars, feel free to drop me a line

My car is standard, I am having problems with my brakes (Its just my car)and want a quick rack (to catch the tail) , possibly some avo shocks and light weight 4 pots.  And Blatts is right about the reverse box, mine is the Westfield one, it works fine, but spits oil out and is very noisy and clunky, so intend on a leccy one) I feel that about all itll need to make it exactly what im after (withot spending mega bucks on more power or even NOS)

(took a friend in it, he said it felt like take off)

Catflapow

[Nick Algar - Competition Secretary]

Thanks Catflap,

Please some is taking the side of the BEC's, agree with most of what you said. The only thing to add is figure out what you want the car for? Track or Road or bit of both.

On the track the BEC's are fantastic, light weight, 6 speed sequential, bucket loads of power and formula 1 revs.

On the road the car engine gives you loads of torque, nice and easy take off, plenty of power for overtaking etc

So it's up to you, and your budget at the end of the day.

But if you buy a Busa you do NEED to fit the dry sump kit, another £ 1200, worth it for peace of mind.

See you on the track

Nick

[Nick M]

If I could just lob in a small observation....

I've passengered in a Megablade a couple of times and, while it's quick, it's not *really, really* quick.  The noise and sensations you get with an aeroscreen flatter it slightly.

I've also been for a ride in a Megabusa and I can see how they would be much quicker than the Blade but I couldn't say how much quicker.

Now, I've also driven some nice VX engined cars, in particular I drove a 2.0 one with about 210-215bhp and this was pretty much back to back with being in the Blade.  The VX engined car, despite the extra weight, was noticeably quicker than the Megablade and was far more tractable at lower revs and tootling through villages.

Now don't get me wrong, both were quick cars and both are great to drive, but if you're looking at a Busa vs. a VX engine then bear in mind that bike power isn't the be all and end all and, as has been mentioned above, for GBP 4,500 to GBP 5,000 you can get a #### of a good VX engine and straight cut box to compliment it.  If a Busa engine goes bang then it's another GBP3,000 you have to find.  If a VX goes bang then it's a mere GBP500....

Just a thought......

[Nick Algar - Competition Secretary]

Nick

And how much to add the 6 speed sequential box, that's the bit I love, as well as the power.

Nick

[Nick M]

But you don't *need* a six speed box with a VX engine as they have enough torque to be able to pull strongly in whatever gear they happen to be in...      

Sequential boxes are all well and good (don't get me wrong, I think they're cool too !! but in terms of the overall engine / gearbox package they're not needed with a car engine.  Nice, desirable, cool ? Yes.  But necessary ?  I think not.

And as for power, well let's not forget that bike engines aren't actually that powerful - they compensate for this to some extent by being much lighter.  The minute you start adding weight, or drag, to a BEC you begin to impair any performance advantage that may have existed.  

As they say, there's more than one way to skin a cat.  Or was it a rabbit.  Anyway, some small furry mammal or other...

[Nick M]

Incidentally, I think it's fair to point out that, with the Busa engine we're talking about the exception in the BEC arena.

It's considerably more expensive than other alternatives such as Blade or R1 engines.  As such, it makes for an interesting comparison with a powerful car engined version since the costs of putting together a reliable and powerful engine aren't that different.

If the discussion was to revolve around *all* BECs then I think the argument for fitting a powerful car engine gets eroded slightly, since the cost is much greater.  However, the fact remains that a powerful car engine (say 210bhp upwards) will match or outperform a Blade and probably even and R1 / Blackbird engined BEC in a similar spec.

[westy]

Our K powered c******m friends do require their 6 speeders  so they can ring the power out of them, but us big fat VX bloaters we have the luxury of not needing them.

I would love a sequential box but there’s little benefit in having one and it’s hard to justify the cost for us CEC folk.  Though when Mr Webb had his on the market it did wet the appetite…

I am looking forward to a blast in a BEC though 'cos I love the sound of them  

now to kill the 'ittle ####s who keep letting off fire works around here