Carbs vs. Zetec

[waynem]

First things first. My choice of engine is Zetec and I shall not be waivered before you all start

My build needs to be to a budget, so carbed Zetec seems to be the option. However, I still have blood flowing through my veins so I would like the extra grunt and torque that injection gives. Suppose there's the emisisons and economy too.....)

To have maximum flexibility about making this choice, what needs to be considered ? Is it just fuel pump and return line ??

S'pose there is the wiring harness too. Has the injection harness got extra connections that can be left with a carbed model or are they incompatible.

If it seems like a false economy I may just have to go for fuel-injection from the off....... Raceline do some nice engines

BTW I mean't carbs vs Injection in the subject... Can't even type and I'm expecting to be able to build a car!!

[peterg]

got carbs myself and there's nowt wrong with that however, for injection in addition to the return line and pump you will also need an injection fuel tank (with built in 'swirl pot' thingy) and a high pressure regulator rather than the low ones used for carbs  

if you're building new then the only way to use carbs (and therefore avoid a catalytic converter) is to get an old engine (pre Aug '95 I think, maybe earlier, check the old threads with a search)

[waynem]

Just been reading some older posts in the techie forum and the consensus seemed to be that the extra expense is warranted. In fact it would be silly not to go injection.

Easier SVA.......(plus the advantage of using a new/newer engine)

Economy.......

Better mid range........

More peak power......

Tuning stability.......

As I started writing this, I more or less started to make up my mind.. Yes, its more expensive initially, but since when has  Westfield ownership been about prudence and common sense!  

[steppenwolf]

First things first. My choice of engine is Zetec and I shall not be waivered before you all start

Good boy!

As I started writing this, I more or less started to make up my mind.. Yes, its more expensive initially, but since when has  Westfield ownership been about prudence and common sense!

I thought I had bought my 'ultimate dream vehicle' and in fairness, I have never regretted my original choice of kit package but I keep on adding to it and expect to do so forever - it is the nature of the beast!

With injection, you have two options of course:-

(1) Use the injection system that comes with the engine from the donor

(2) Install Throttle Bodies and purchase an programmable ECU etc.

The first option is of course the cheapest and has pros and cons:-

On the plus side, the standard Ford ECU is not programmable and is 'self learning' - so you do not need to have it programmed! Self evident I know but mapping an ECU system can be very costly indeed.

On the negative side, you will have 'standard' power output and some potential problems to be resolved with regard to other extraneous inputs to the ECU that will be 'missing' from an installation in a Westfield.

The second option will allow you to obtain more power at greater cost (new bits about £1500.00) plus the cost of mapping. You can of course obtain 'off the shelf maps' which will allow the engine to run and may even allow it to run fairly well but you will be missing the opportunity to get the best from the system if you do not have a tailored map for your particular installation set up on a rolling road.

With the second option you will also have the potential pleasure (?) of playing for hours making adjustments in the knowledge that you can put it all back EXACTLY as it was if your experiments don't work out!

Carbs. will do an excellent job but the ultimate flexibility comes from mappable fuel injection.

[Blatman]

Easier SVA.......(plus the advantage of using a new/newer engine)

Small point.....I believe that the DVLA are putting, or will be putting, the emissions standrards that were met when the vehicle was SVA'd, on the log book. So if you need a cat to pass SVA, you'll need it at every MOT too. With a pre 95 engine, you won't need a CAT, whether or not you fit fuel injection............

[waynem]

Interesting point about SVA and cats.....

Whats the current deal with "new" injected Westfields and cats. Are they fitted? I don't seem to remember anyone ever mentioning them.  

Know what you mean about playing with fuel/ignition maps... I have such a gismo on my bike for remapping the fuelling with my nice race exhaust. I've never had the nerve to play with mine incase I melt the pistons. It's been set up and thats the way it will stay (until I change something else)  

The real dillema is I want to get on the road, and taking cheapo shortcuts will allow me to do this, but I KNOW that give it a year or so and I'll be itching to get more bhp. This will mean getting a load of other bits and costing much more in the long term. Should just take my time getting the car I REALLY want onto the road. If it takes a bit longer to source parts and more scrimping and saving then so be it. Compromise was never a word I liked  

BTW Does anyone on these boards NOT want to modify their Westie further??  

[steppenwolf]

Whats the current deal with "new" injected Westfields and cats. Are they fitted? I don't seem to remember anyone ever mentioning them.  

New injected Westfields (providing the engine is newer than 1995) have CATS fitted. The CAT is in the front section of the side exhaust so cannot be removed without replacing the entire exhaust box. Errrrr ..... one of my upgrades in fact but only for track use of course  

[Westfieldman]

Three types of up grades

More horse power etc.

Driver training race instruction etc.

Both of the above

Do the second one until you can drive the wheels off the car when you can do 1:30's around Cadwell with 150 bhp then spend more on engines etc.

The more you spend on the engine the longer its off the road while you save up to mend it when you blow it up £15,000 for a Minster K series [R500 engine]

Standard 1800 Zetec with 40 thoug off the head 130 cams and 45's makes 162bhp on Dennis Vessey's rollers

Zetecs are an afordable reliable engines that make for a good all round engine

If you go for injection from the start what about the Duratec with this engine you will need to have injection from the start to pass SVA the cost difference is going to be in the engine it's self as Zetecs can be had for £200 upwards and in need of some work the Duratec would probably just need an oil change and bolt on the bits to make it work I priced some Duratec's up from Simpson Salvage and they wanted £650+vat, one was from a car that was writen off due to being flooded with water inside, do not get one from a rolled car though the engine still runs and the oil is in the cam cover so it's b*******ed very quickly.

Paul.

[waynem]

Done a bit of race tuition at Oulton Park and Silverstone....

The One Day intensive Race tuition at Silverstone is very good, although you do have to drive c******ms

It was actually this experience which sent me down this path. Absolutely NO other car has given me such a laugh as powersliding a Seven-type car. Not even come close!! Audi TT - Dullesville!!!! Far too refined!! (Single seaters are good though!!

My purpose for a (reasonably powerful) Westfield is for Track Days and the odd Sunday jaunt. I do trackdays on my bike and while I love it there are times when it, quite frankly, scares the pants off me. My wife/parents fears for my safety at times  ( ), so a vaguely practical track car will passify them. In reality, I know its not that much safer than a bike, but seems more respectable and just as much fun if you know what I mean!!!!    

My current (as of a few hours ago)  plan is to get a salvaged Zetec (local breakers for £395 (2L) ) and go with the stock ECU/injectors etc. as much as possible. Good for around 150bhp which should be plenty for getting on with. Save the pennies and then upgrade/mod later....

At least the carb/injector decision is more or less made..

As for the Duratec, I'll leave that to a few more experienced mechanics to increase the knowledge base first......

Cheers

[steppenwolf]

In reality, I know its not that much safer than a bike, but seems more respectable and just as much fun if you know what I mean!!!!

I hope you are wrong about that as my mid-life crisis toy was a Westfield rather than a bike because a biker friend of mine put me off them as he spent too much time at funerals and intensive care departments as his biking circle diminished!

Don't get me wrong, I'm under no illusions about the relative lack of protection in a car like 'ours' but am hopeful that it will afford more than a bike ....

My current (as of a few hours ago)  plan is to get a salvaged Zetec (local breakers for £395 (2L) ) and go with the stock ECU/injectors etc. as much as possible. Good for around 150bhp which should be plenty for getting on with.

You are gonna have a lot of fun with that at a sensible cost too,

[Westfieldman]

The standard Ford induction injection does not make 150bhp around 130 if you are lucky and you need an extra U.J. in the lower steering column to dip under the plenum chamber

If you want to use the standard ECU from Ford Ring David at Fibre form in Barton upon Humber as he makes the half way plenum/throtle body for Geieneta cars and this uses all the standard Ford bits and there race cars make around the 150 bhp if you need to see if it will fit under the bonnet I could drive over to see Dave and check it does fit.

Paul.

[TerryC]

Hi Paul,

What are the excact specs of the 130 cams that I hear so much about. Are they from a standard 2 ltr Zetec engine or are they after market?

Also, if you were to take 40 thou of the head, would you need a improved cylinder head gasket?

[Westfieldman]

Hi

Do you have a fax machine as I can fax you a comparison of the rolling road of the standard 1800 cams and the 130/2litre cams on the one print out

40 though off the head and a standard Ford gasket and 4000 miles later and still good this includes 4 track days at Cadwell

Where are you in the country I am in Cleethorpes if you want to see how my car if it helps.

Paul.

[TerryC]

Hi,

I,m way up north in Fife, Cowdenbeath(Nil) to be precise!

I do have a fax on my PC, so send away!!!

Terry.

[TerryC]

Prob helps if I give me fax number, dunit!!!

01383 611625

Terry.