Roll bars rule clarification needed for road going

[Mark (smokey mow)]

I’ve done a search on this but as the rules change every year I thought better to get an up to date opinion.

I’m entering the Speed Series for the first time and in a road going category but the car is presently fitted with a single hoop (chocolate) roll over bar with no backstays.  This will be changed during the season but possibly not in time for the first event.  

Previous discussion would appear to suggest that 4-points of fixing as required by K1.6.1 in the blue book are not mandatory in road-going categories and S.10.1.2 appears to confirm this by Indicating that for Road Going Specialist Production cars K1.6.1 is only recommended.  

My question is a Road going Westfield considered by MSA scrutineers as being a Specialist Production car (S10.1.2) or is it a Modified Specialist Production Car (S10.1.3) in which case K1.6.1 would be a requirement and I will need a bar with backstays in place for the first event?

I notice from my photo’s of Curborough last year that several cars were either running a a single hoop, 3 points with a petty strut or the RAC bar (lets not get started on tube diameters & bend radii).  My interpretation from this therefore is that a WF is a Specialist production car and hence 4 point fixings to diagrams K1 or K2 are not mandatory and my chocolate bar will be ok for the first event till I get it changed.  

Thanks, Mark

[Nick Algar - Competition Secretary]

Mark,

I read the rules the same way. The only other thing is the way the scrutineers read the rules. They may decide that as you have a roll bar fitted it must comply. But you could run with it taken off, stupid I know, but there you go. I think Cast Iron had some experience of this early on, he might be able to help.

The other main thing to think about is they are there for a reason and do you really want to risk it

[Mark (smokey mow)]

Thanks Nick,

Totally agree with you on the scrutineers interprotation of the rules possibly varying but i guess it also comes down to whether they consider a Westfield as road going or modified specialst production and therefore which rules apply.  I agree also with the comments on safety which to me is a very important consideration and hence my reason for looking to change the bar to something that offers a level of protection as opposed to just looking nice.  

Leading on from the original question the bar I am looking to fit will only have 3 points of mounting using a petty strut into the passenger footwell as opposed to 4-points which could be achieved with backstays (see pic below), again I interpret to be ok if classed as road going specialist production but like the WF RAC bar it would not be ok as a modified specialist production car.

[Terry Everall]

If you have a choice I would try and pick up an RAC/MSA type with rear struts as it will reduce debate with Scruts!

Caged are good and try to get one that is 490 or 500 high for head clearance. Tr an ad for a secondhand one maybe

[Mark Stanton]

Get an MSA compliant roll bar asap - Plays Kool and Caged can offer suitable options      

Please note the braced roll bar currently supplied by WSC Ltd is not MSA compliant    

[spm]

Get an MSA compliant roll bar asap - Plays Kool and Caged can offer suitable options      

Please note the baraced roll bar currently supplied by WSC Ltd is not MSA compliant    

Mark

Are you saying that WSC ltd RAC bar is not compliant ?

SPM  

[Mark (smokey mow)]

Get an MSA compliant roll bar asap - Plays Kool and Caged can offer suitable options      

Please note the baraced roll bar currently supplied by WSC Ltd is not MSA compliant    

Mark

Are you saying that WSC ltd RAC bar is not compliant ?

SPM  

Clear as mud insn't it    Thanks all for the comments so far.  

If I understand all of the above correctly and from my reading of the blue book, then in road going classes an MSA compliant bar is reccomended but not mandatory, whilst in non-road going catagories you must have an bar which complies with (K)1.6.1 or (K)1.6.2.

The Westfield RAC bar does not comply with the MSA roll bar regulations as from my reading, the diameter of the bar is too small, the material thickness is too thin and the radii of the top bends too tight.  There has also been much discussion (as Terry hinted above) on the legalities of rose joints on the rear stays.

It appears to me that for a road going car where an MSA compliant bar is not mandatory then the WF RAC bar could be ok and stupidly also would be the single hoop unbraced bar as fitted in my avatar.

Edit to add: IMO my safety is paramount and I will be changing my roll bar, I just want to make sure that what I fit will be correct for the class I enter.

[Mark Stanton]

SPM

QUOTE

Please note the braced roll bar currently supplied by WSC Ltd is not MSA compliant    

Exactly which part of the above did you not understand          (speelin korreckted)  

As Mark has pointed out it fails on many items and it is too low for many drivers     WSC Ltd have been told about it for over two years and have chosen not to provide a compliant bar ....... their choice

It should not be sold or advertised as a compliant rollbar suitable for competition use

[erictharg]

I have a hoop with forward brace on my Eleven which I've learned won't cut it for Racing (no surprise, but worth trying!) but never even got looked at last year at Harewood by the scrutineers. Kicked the tyres, pulled the harness and tweaked the steering wheel.

I plan to run in road registered class this year at speed events and I'm going to turn up and see what happens.

I don't believe scrutineers can afford to (or want to) be too picky for speed events. They'll end up with no entrants, and hard though it is to believe, we members fund the MSA.

I agree with all the comments on safety being a priority, but the measures you take to protect yourself (and others) need to be proportional to the actual risk.

In your place I would upgrade to something with some bracing and a diagonal as an unsupported hoop would likely not last long in any kind of roll.

[mattycatty]

Hi all,

I'm in a similar dilemma to Smokey. I also have the single roll hoop from Westfield and have just registered for the 2010 speed series.

However, I don't really want to compromise my cars touring abilities, I mean, being able to have a roof and store it in the boot when not needed.

What is the likelihood of being refused entry by a scrutineer and/or are there any options for a satisfactory roll bar and removable front stay that would fit under the roof.

Regards,

Matt

[Mark Stanton]

Road-going cars a compliant roll bar is NOT mandatory but if fitted must be in accordance with Blue Book    

In previous years road-going cars have competed with a standard single hoop bar - Scrutineers do tut tut and advise to fit something better but have never refused anyone an entry.

However if you do decide to fit something "better" it must be in accordance with Blue Book ............. now its best not to start questioning the whys and wherefores, rights and wrongs because this is the MSA and Blue Book where sometimes logic and common-sense do not happen ........ its ofetn best and less stressful to simply do what needs to be done, smile at scrutes and say "Thank you for your advice and concern"  then you can get on with your business  

[Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Chairman]

The "RAC" bar can be made/modified to fit under a roof, admittedly, it can be struggle with an existing roof, but you can (or could) get WF roof components new that will do the job.

Mind you, materials and profile aside, one of the biggest issues with the RAC bar is it's height - it's just too low for a lot of people. Though lowered floors and careful choice of seat could probably get round that, and still be roof friendly.

Edited to add: speaking solely from a safety perspective, NOT a scrutineering one!

[davidgh]

The pragmatic case seems to be that most scrutes would rather turn a blind eye to an inadequate roll-over bar on a road going car (which, if fitted, should be blue book compliant) than exclude it and run the risk that the competitor removes it completely in order to become "legal". Absolutely stupid situation   --  but why you see so many kit-cars being sprinted with bars that are patently lower than the driver's helmet.

However, as Mark notes, it's your choice. Personally, I enjoy life....................

[mattycatty]

Thanks for the clarification all,

On a side note, just before Christmas I bought a spare set of wheels and 4 Yokohama Parada Spec-2 tyres.

Now, these are in list 1a of the 2009 book, but have mysteriously shifted over the column in the 2010 book under list 1b, but another manufacturer!

I'm guessing i'ts an editing error, but will the scrutineers be aware of it or do I need to seek clarification from the MSA?

Apologies if these questions seem a bit amateur but i'm very new to all this.

Matt

[cast iron]

My first event at 3 sisters with the evil santa claus said remove my chocolate / chrome westy rool hoop or dont run. I claimed whilst road going didnt neeed a hoop the speed series regs say you do as a minimum need a hoop as supplied by the factory. He let me run eventually

Having fitted a Westfield debateable MSA hoop the first thing I noticed was the increase in stiffness and the improved handling. I also took the car to Le mans in the pouring rain with the standard roof and doors on, oh and I'm 6'-4"