Bike Engined Cars and Cats

[atillin]

I'm entering this debate very late but feel I need to canvas opinion via the Boardroom.  

I've got a 2006 Megablade (with 95 pre-cat carb engine).  Trackdays over the last 2 years have been great and I will continue to do as many as I can.

However, I thought I'd get back into motorsport and try some sprints this year (not Speed Series unfortunately and may be never at this rate) before helmet and overalls need replacing.  

Car would be fine for Roadgoing class (SVA'd and MOT'd) and fully road legal.  Needless to say I've been scuppered by MSA and the new reg on page 150 of the Blue Book concerning Cats.

Why they've introduced such a nonsensical rule I'm at a loss to understand.  Carbs and cats dont mix let alone the fact that my car was designed to take a non-cat engine and there's very little space to insert an aftermarket Cat unit.

Anyway now to basis of the post.  Has anyone here canvassed MSA Technical Department about our (my) predicament?  I'm talking about a WSCC delegation or combined email/written effort.  Yahoo BEC Groups might also have something to say.  

It may be a futile gesture but must be worth a go (especially if we all have Comp Licences).

I've sent an email to MSA today to ask for an explanation as to why my car must be fitted with a Cat.  May be more emails would help ... Technical@msauk.org

Adrian Tillin

[barney]

yes ,believe me the bec sprinters have made their views very plain to the MSA,but it appears the FIA were forcing this through,dont think even the MSA can see the sense in it,but its trying to placate the tree huggers..

cheers

Barney

[grahame]

I'm currently running a Catalyst on a hairdrier, with no closed loop lambda feedback (I have an early hairdrier). It's early injection technology, marginally better than carbs I guess. Needless to say, the Westfield catalyst in the factory can is getting a tad HOT. It's not ideal, I'd say dangerous, but to comply, you have to comply, remove brain.

If you get a good contact in the MSA I'd love to share my views on the subject, politely and scientifically.

[Kevin Jones]

RGB boys have been having a few moans, melted cat here, and more commentary here.

[atillin]

Quick update - no reply from Technical Dept at MSA.  I´ll chase again referencing the RGB problems.  Not even had an email acknowledgement from them.

[stevewi]

Wasting your time Atillin, MSA don't give a crap about racers, just need to make money and please green brigade.

As for being road legal without a cat, have had the same argument so many times over reverse, my car is legal on the road without one, so why do I have to have one to race, becuase the MSA say you do.

They make no sense with regard to cat, if I was to build my own car I wouldn't need one, but because its a westfield and post 1999 chassis it has to have one.

[bultacobarry]

No need for cats yet where I live    

I think circuit racing will be fine for at least next year.

Sprints and Hills are another issue, we have a movement brewing to comply with the rest of the UK rules. Our non-cat exhausts and ACB10s are at severe risk.      

[atillin]

All,

I have received the following reply from MSA Tech Director John Symes:

Good Morning

We note your comments concerning fitment of catalytic converters and respond as follows.

Whether an engine originates from a car or motorcycle it is a gasoline fuelled internal combustion engine. Catalytic converters can be fitted to any such engine subject to a suitable specification catalytic converter being correctly installed. There is nothing new about fitting catalytic converters to vehicles in motor sport, it has been a matter of civil law in Germany since 1992 that excepting period exempt vehicles (historics) all cars in motorsport are so equipped irrespective of being fuel injected, carburettor equipped, whether the engine is sourced from car, motorcycle or any other source.

“Cats” are a requirement in other countries and have been for many years. There are some motorcycles that come “cat equipped” there are some motorcycle engine equipped specialist production cars that are also “cat equipped”.

Like anything else if the correct equipment is correctly installed it is unlikely there will be issues.

Regards

John Symes

Technical Director

The Royal Automobile Club Motor Sports Association Limited

DDI 01753 765074

I do not have the technical knowledge to do battle with Mr Symes Esq.  Others here may be able to challenge his use of the phase "unlikely there will be issues" - he provides his DDI number.  

I have sent a personal reply asking them to revisit this nonsensical rule for roadgoing classes where the engine is legally fitted and does not require a cat.

More of us should do the same.

Cheers for now,

[atillin]

Further reply from MSA ...

Good morning

You must make your own decision although we are disappointed that you have decided to withdraw from motorsport. It is not our policy to conduct correspondence through public media but if you choose to do so then so be it.

The proposal to introduce this requirement was publicised more than twelve months ago and went through the established process of consultation with each and every licence holder. We received some feedback but in reality only in the order of around 15 – 20 communications which is a very small percentage. Nevertheless all were carefully considered and replied to.

There is a realisation in the FIA as world governing body and ASN’s the world over, including the MSA that for motorsport to survive we must have a more environmentally friendly image. Hence why the FIA has an Alternative Energies Commission and an Environmentally Sustainable Motorsport Commission. If motor sport fails to control emissions, be they exhaust gases or noise, fails to address such issues as ground erosion, etc., etc. there is no future for motor sport. Self regulation is far more comfortable than is legally imposed legislation.

Regards

John Symes

Technical Director

The Royal Automobile Club Motor Sports Association Limited

DDI 01753 765074

Atleast I will hold some sort of record for the shortest ever motorsport comeback.

Cheers for now,

[Nick Algar - Competition Secretary]

Hi Atilin,

Unfortunatley as Barney and others have already said and you have found out directly. This one is dead and buried. If you want to compete you need a chassis that is older than 1/1/2000 or just fit a CAT. We did a lot of lobbying to no avail and there is no point dragging it up again.

BUT, please note, no-one is saying the CAT has to work, also they are not saying where it has to be, so buy a nice cheap one and stick it on the end of the exhaust then you have complied. Great ain't it

[atillin]

Nick,

Many thanks for the reply.  I have given up with MSA - and not for the first time.  I encountered similar ill-considered technical challenges with Road Rallying in the 80's and Autotesting in the early 90's.  

I note your remark ref location.  

Best regards,

Adrian Tillin

[Tonto1]

1 Track day, 1 Sprint and half a hillclimb and this is what my newly fitted MSA friendly/compliant CAT looks like:

Not effing impressed.

[barney]

have a word with andy at ab performance,talking to him today he has a wayto incorporate a cat into a back box in a very interesting way...

[atillin]

Tonto1 - sorry to hear about and see your woes.  I took Nick Algar's advice and bought a cheap Yamaha Fazer 600cc bike cat (£20 and turns out it's 100 cell stainless too).  Just did my first sprint today and everything is ok (if you forget slipping clutch).

Barney - I will have a word with Andy Bates (even more pressing as I now need a clutch/springs kit from him).

Cheers,

Adrian

[STAINLESS STEVE]

I bought a GSXR1000  endcan from a 2004 onwards bike, it comes with a CAT in as standard. I've fitted it to my 2001 Hayabusa lump and had it on the rollers knocking out 194 bhp. I've already used it at one race meeting and two trackdays and it's b****y sooperb!

Price £10 plus £10 post and packing!!!

Suck that MSA.

Forgot to say, I cut the rear end off and removed the stupid maze of tubes from inside. This takes a bit of doing as it's all made of titanium other than the outer sleeve which is alloy. When I got it noise tested it came up at about 103db.