Terry Everall Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 Is it me or are the regs becoming very difficult to understand and implement practically even if you know what is needed. I am trying to prepare my brother Steves car for first seaon sprinting (Class B). So he needs a new silencer with a CAT Ok.Cost about £300 to £350. His helmet is probably no longer of use nor the Proban overalls. He does already have fireproof underwear! The car has a factory rose jointed RAC roll over bar which is apparently not compliant with the regs , so more expense. BUT - What do I replace it with that is acceptable? Surely not an unreasonable question to ask in prep for new season which looms closer. God only knows what applies to my own car in terms of rear facing struts and mounting plate sizes. I do not want to fail scrutineering at any event never mind first of season. How can we resolve this issue sensibly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Algar - Competition Secretary Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 Is it me or are the regs becoming very difficult to understand and implement practically even if you know what is needed. I am trying to prepare my brother Steves car for first seaon sprinting (Class B). So he needs a new silencer with a CAT Ok.Cost about £300 to £350. His helmet is probably no longer of use nor the Proban overalls. He does already have fireproof underwear! The car has a factory rose jointed RAC roll over bar which is apparently not compliant with the regs , so more expense. BUT - What do I replace it with that is acceptable? Surely not an unreasonable question to ask in prep for new season which looms closer. God only knows what applies to my own car in terms of rear facing struts and mounting plate sizes. I do not want to fail scrutineering at any event never mind first of season. How can we resolve this issue sensibly? Terry & everyone else. Having spent a lot of time and had some discussion about this over the last few months. My understanding is as follows:- For 2009, you should be OK running in the same way as you have in previous years, so a "RAC" roll over bar is sufficient for all our classes, not totally sure about Sport Libre, but if you have been OK before, then should be OK for 2009. In 2010 the rules changes come in for our classes. A lot of this is going to get sorted out during the year, but current take on it is:- Classes A,B,C & D normal hoop with back braces, but not sure how fussy they are going to get with rose joints. Classes G&H You will need a Roll Cage Classes E&F Not sure, you are going to go either way and it will all depend on what they do with tyres, so no definate answer at the moment. His overalls will actually be OK for 2009, but possibly not from then on. As you will gather from the above and I think I have said in previous posts, there is lots that will be getting sorted out his year. So where you can, don't rush into changes until it becomes clearer and don't moan at me if I have got it wrong It's the best interpretation I can get so hopefully by October all will be clear Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Everall Posted February 2, 2009 Author Share Posted February 2, 2009 Thanks Nick Your efforts are appreciated and lets hope the changes are easy and cheap to implement. Trouble is that the "bible" is ambiguous and confusing. I read the bits that are relevant and as you say they need sorting out and clarification asap to avoid wasting money Tel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Stanton Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 Cats can be had for a lot less than £300 see Dels bulk buy price Rollbars - WSC Ltd should soon have available a roll bar which is higher - to avoid use of "aftermarket hoops" and does not use RJ's for any connections thus satisfying Blue Book and keeping all scrutes "happy". WSC Ltd have looked closely at Blue Book requirements and hope that new bar removes all grey areas and interpretations Use of "aftermarket hoops" and RJ's was highlighted in 2008 - if anyone chooses to ignore, forget or did not read ........will cut no ice with MSA Probans and helmet rules come into being in 2010 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Stanton Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 QUOTE The car has a factory rose jointed RAC roll over bar which is apparently not compliant with the regs , so more expense Terry times and rules change - have you ever seen an homologation certificate for rollbar The previous WSC Ltd management were selling the rollbar as RAC compliant was this ever questioned and how could it ever have be compliant for anyone over 5' 8" ?? The RAC changed its name to MSA several years ago Was the rollbar ever tested and approved and if it was why wasn't it stickered up as such Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Everall Posted February 2, 2009 Author Share Posted February 2, 2009 Thanks Mark but where should I have read about Rose Joints and rear facing struts? Nick seems to think it's not quite so clear yet and that is my point about a lack of clear understanding not helped by this years rule book. Hope you can help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Loudon - Sponsorship Liaison Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 Oh to be short and have thin low mounted seats Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Algar - Competition Secretary Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 Thanks Mark but where should I have read about Rose Joints and rear facing struts? Nick seems to think it's not quite so clear yet and that is my point about a lack of clear understanding not helped by this years rule book. Hope you can help Terry, The problem as I see it is that demountable lateral bars that Westfield have traditionally used are covered under Rules C© 24 & 25, which makes refernce to drawings 2 and 21 to 30. However the rules (I) 46, state that our roadgoing cars must compy with C© 31-35 or 36. But what we need is for this to be clarified, which it will be this year, and as I have already said, the rules really come into effect in 2010, so lets wait and find out, rather than worry about it now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pistol Pete Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 Nick I'm quite happy to be corrected, but (I)46 states the following: Sprint and Hill Climb Vehicles 46. All Sprint and Hill Climb vehicles must comply with the following: Safety • Roll-over Safety Bars C©-1-3, except for cars of Periods A – E (The Terminology) • Road-Going Series Production and Road-Going Specialist Production, C©-31-35 or 36 recommended • Modified Limited Production Cars and Modified Specialist Production Cars must comply with C©-31-35 or 36 The key word being 'recommended', this is also the same as my conversation with John Symes @ the MSA, who confirmed running in a road going class there is no requirement to run a roll bar. If this was not the case, no road going saloons etc would be able to enter without a rollbar and nobody will be sprinting this year or next year as there will only be a couple of dozen entries. Mark has rightly expressed some concerns that if one is fitted some scrutes may insist it must comply, however the only requirements that John Symes mentioned is that if a rollber is fitted it must not present a hazard. I have since e-mailed the MSA requested confirmation this is not the case, I am awaiting a reply. It is my understanding that for sprinting in road going class you can turn up with a road car with an MOT and certificate and run. Cheers Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Stanton Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 QUOTE it must not present a hazard and this will be the "get-out" clause who determines whether a hazard or not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Algar - Competition Secretary Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 Hi Pete, You are right as far as you go. The concern is over the class changes that are happening in 2010 and which of our classes are going to be in "roadgoing" As I say for 09 we look OK, if what you had before passed, then it should pass again. Through 09 we should be able to actually understand how thngs are affected, if at all ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenandmean Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 I have since e-mailed the MSA requested confirmation this is not the case, I am awaiting a reply. Don't hold your breath sometimes the MSA can make a glacier look fast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenandmean Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 Oh to be short and have thin low mounted seats And have an old car so no cat some people are just born lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Stanton Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 but he's got an old helmet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Algar - Competition Secretary Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 I should have also added that Pete is right, according to the rules you could run without a roll over bar. But I saw a Westfield role right in front of me when I was marshalling at Harewood. There is no way would I drive one now without a proper roll over bar with back struts at least. And personally I felt so strongly about it that I have fitted a full cage to my'n Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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