Blatman Posted December 17, 2008 Posted December 17, 2008 It's equally fascinating that so many people have wished to contribute to this thread. As owners, we do, in a sense, have some 'equity' in the business. If it were to fail, we would not suffer to anything like the extent of the workforce, but there would still be a loss of 'equity'. (No parts, no back-up, loss of residual value..). Er... rubbish! Bespoke parts on a Westfield = chassis, body (not all of it either), screen and pillars, and rear uprights. *Everything* else can be bought at the local industrial estate or from a specialist supplier/competitor. From that perpective I have more "equity" in Partco, Think Automotive and Mickmade than Westfield... Quote
tonyl42 Posted December 17, 2008 Posted December 17, 2008 With respect, I don't think you've quite taken my point. Of course you can get parts and technical support from other sources, but would you rather see WF in business or not? If this is of no concern to you, then certainly you have no 'equity'. Perhaps the word 'stakeholder' would sit with you better? BTW, I'm all for vigorous debate, but the use of words like 'rubbish' in this context does you no credit. Quote
DanB Posted December 18, 2008 Posted December 18, 2008 QUOTE In 2008 westfield have dropped the Sport 2000s from their line up and now have nothing to compete with Caterham's flagships especially since Caterham have moved foward with a different engine make. Now why would they do that? Would they drop it because it was making lots of profit for them and they were selling shedloads of them? Or, perhaps rather more realistically, was it because it wasn't in fact making any money for them and they'd make more money doing something else? If you want to see Westfield compete in a dick-swinging contest with Caterham, fair enough - if you finance it. If you don't fancy bank-rolling loss-making glory projects, then I can't see how you can criticise Westfield for not doing so. Quote
Blatman Posted December 18, 2008 Posted December 18, 2008 With respect, I don't think you've quite taken my point. Of course you can get parts and technical support from other sources, but would you rather see WF in business or not? If this is of no concern to you, then certainly you have no 'equity'. Perhaps the word 'stakeholder' would sit with you better? BTW, I'm all for vigorous debate, but the use of words like 'rubbish' in this context does you no credit. Stakeholder? In this context no different from equity holder. The context of the bit I quoted was that if Westfield fail, there is no parts back up and a loss of residual value. Maybe saying rubbish was a bit plain speaking of me, but as I haven't bought anything from Westfield for well over a decade, parts supply isn't an issue that will keep me up nights, and I didn't buy my cars with an eye on residuals, so I don't care about that either. And I'm not alone... As for Westfields marketing, I haven't seen the sales figures, nor the order book, nor do I know anything about their margins, wage bill, or anything else they're forking out to insurance companies, ad agencies, professional bodies, HM Government, the EU, VOSA, MIRA, TRRL, Uncle Tom Cobley an' all. What I do know is that if it is unsustainable, they'll fold. It's not callous or uncaring, it's just the way it is. Yes, of course I'd like to seem them survive with strong products that we want to buy at competitive prices. But there's the rub. For me (and plenty of others), that would be breaking the habits of the last 10+ years. I haven't bought anything from Westfield for well over a decade becuase they have nothing that I want as an owner, plain and simple... Quote
nikpro Posted December 18, 2008 Posted December 18, 2008 blah blah blah wot a bell end I really can't argue against such a well formulated and constructive arguement; the points you put foward are so well explained and detailed it embarrasses me! I really didn't think about these points before - I'm glad you've enlightened me and I shall never again criticise the company I bought a component car from again - sorry! Quote
Arm Posted December 18, 2008 Posted December 18, 2008 QUOTE So you're suggesting that selling VW's to dealers (who then sell onto J.Public Esq), doesn't generate revenue for VAG? ...and that falling Bentley sales won't mean a slowdown in their repayments to VAG? ...and that VAG won't look to make-up the shortfall somewhere? Or that the profit VAG generate by selling cars to the dealer won't go towards VAG's own interest payments on it's debts? Or that Porsche with it's 51% + controlling interest in VAG won't get a bit of a wobble on? Worldwide Automobile manufacturing is a great big incestuous self-devouring circle... No LippyDave those are your words not mine. I’m challenging your statement “and if you're a VW dealer, you'll be supporting the 40% sales downturn that VAG owned Bentley are currently suffering....” I don’t have rose tinticled spectacles and I’m fully aware of the challenges ahead thankyou. No one will have an easy time; automotive, finance, service sector, construction and the rest will all find it very tough. However we don’t need people speculating by quoting figures that are not correct. Quote
Cleggy the Spyder Man Posted December 18, 2008 Posted December 18, 2008 what's this post all about? Quote
tonyl42 Posted December 18, 2008 Posted December 18, 2008 Stakeholder? In this context no different from equity holder. The context of the bit I quoted was that if Westfield fail, there is no parts back up and a loss of residual value. Maybe saying rubbish was a bit plain speaking of me, but as I haven't bought anything from Westfield for well over a decade, parts supply isn't an issue that will keep me up nights, and I didn't buy my cars with an eye on residuals, so I don't care about that either. And I'm not alone... As for Westfields marketing, I haven't seen the sales figures, nor the order book, nor do I know anything about their margins, wage bill, or anything else they're forking out to insurance companies, ad agencies, professional bodies, HM Government, the EU, VOSA, MIRA, TRRL, Uncle Tom Cobley an' all. What I do know is that if it is unsustainable, they'll fold. It's not callous or uncaring, it's just the way it is. Yes, of course I'd like to seem them survive with strong products that we want to buy at competitive prices. But there's the rub. For me (and plenty of others), that would be breaking the habits of the last 10+ years. I haven't bought anything from Westfield for well over a decade becuase they have nothing that I want as an owner, plain and simple... OK, Blatman, let's agree to differ slightly on this one - I'm an effete Southerner who can't handle conflict... Time to move on, for me at least Quote
stephenh Posted December 18, 2008 Posted December 18, 2008 tony, unless I'm very much mistaken, Blatman is a southerner as well! Maybe just a bit less effete than you though! Quote
Barry Ashcroft Posted December 18, 2008 Posted December 18, 2008 QUOTE If it were to fail, we would not suffer to anything like the extent of the workforce, but there would still be a loss of 'equity'. (No parts, no back-up, loss of residual value..). Not caused TVR owners any problems I would be very sorry for the work force Quote
Blatman Posted December 18, 2008 Posted December 18, 2008 OK, Blatman, let's agree to differ slightly on this one - I'm an effete Southerner who can't handle conflict... Time to move on, for me at least Shame. I was looking forward to the debate. And as Stephen says, I'm a southerner, albeit a few miles north of the Thames I do enjoy robust debate and a frank exchange of views though. Always have... Quote
tonyl42 Posted December 19, 2008 Posted December 19, 2008 But south of Watford, I trust. Otherwise this could open a whole new can of worms. TonyL Quote
lippydave Posted December 19, 2008 Posted December 19, 2008 No LippyDave those are your words not mine. I’m challenging your statement “and if you're a VW dealer, you'll be supporting the 40% sales downturn that VAG owned Bentley are currently suffering....” I don’t have rose tinticled spectacles and I’m fully aware of the challenges ahead thankyou. No one will have an easy time; automotive, finance, service sector, construction and the rest will all find it very tough. However we don’t need people speculating by quoting figures that are not correct. I refer the learned Gentleman to post #57 in this thread... Think we may have to agree to disagree, but either way we seem to have incureed a degree or two of thread drift...... Quote
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