ACB10 - scrubbing and geometry

[salexander]

Avons advice to bring in the fronts more progressively and don't push them - simply isn't an option for sprinting.  You can't wait until the 2nd lap before really going for it   The rears will inevitably come up to temp a bit earlier which leaves you with two options - set the suspension up to overcome the early understeer and put up with a car that is a little loose later in the run or suffer the early understeer and have a better balanced car later in the run when the tyre temps are good.  For a 10 lap race you have the luxury of a warm-up lap or tyre warmers and can set up the suspension accordingly.

The main reason for the lack of camber is the fact that the ACB-10 is a cross-ply, not a radial.

There aren't any absolute answers to how much camber, toe, pressure, temperature etc. due to all of the variables - everyone's car is different, different driving styles, different circuits, surfaces, ambient temperatures, age of tyres, amount of tread left etc etc.

[conibear]

Because tyres work differently at different temperatures...2 laps is not going to get them as warm as 10.

Remember the difference between static and dynamic camber.  Suspension systems will add camber to the tyre through the movement, by changing the static you are altering the dynamic.

Sorry, don't go with different suspension settings for same tyre, whether race or sprint. Compounds are an aid for temperature as well as other things  I agree camber setting may vary on various vehicles and is very much dependant on said vehicle/driver ability to load up the tyres, so it is unwise to say 'A' is better than 'B'. Wear and temperature spread is a good method that I have used in establishing an optimum camber setting for my car, and with my crossply slicks it is no where near 0 camber  

Never heard that advice from Avon either, heat generated in a tyre comes from scrub/movement/twist whatever you call it and you won't have much chance in getting that with 0 camber   I suggest you look at a more aggresive setup to generate heat quicker, although it is not easy in our cars I know FWIW, Avon have always informed me to run camber on crossplys

Tyre warmers are not allowed in racing, yes warm up lap is put on, but once again is easier to heat the rears than the fronts for obvious reasons.

Crossply's do require camber, but not as much as radials and IMO camber settings should not be dictated by tyre tread amount, surfaces, ambient temperatures, different circuits, age of tyres it should be established what works for you and your car and then more or less set. If your tyres are wearing wrong then look at the camber/pressure and if they are old throw them away.

So, I would suggest setting your camber correctly may take a while whilst you experiment  

[zoso]

It's a balancing act though isn't it.

Camber is but one setting, perhaps for certain application you are better getting your increased heat generation from toe rather than camber.  Where heat is going to be generated from straight line accel/decell before rearching a corner say, which would be my take on sprinting/hillclimbing...  Camber would reduce your footprint in a straight line making the first application of power/brakes less effective, where as toe possibly wouldn't...

I'm no expert but I have some experience, though not directly with hilclimb/sprinting.  The original question was why change the suspension settings for different applications.

0 camber will not put 0 camber on the tyre throughout it's movement, roll on camber will put more on, but it will be lessend by the static settings, is what I should've written last time.

QUOTE

IMO camber settings should not be dictated by tyre tread amount, surfaces, ambient temperatures, different circuits, age of tyres it should be established what works for you and your car and then more or less set.

I'm a little confused by this bit.  Are you saying that there is no dictated right or wrong for A + B @ 20 degrees on the first sunday of lent, type rationale?

If so fair enough, but I belive (and have seen) there is room for adjustment (of all settings) for ambient temperatures, track condition, track type etc etc...  It's all that we ever tweaked in FFord...

[conibear]

IMO camber settings should not be dictated by tyre tread amount, surfaces, ambient temperatures, different circuits, age of tyres it should be established what works for you and your car and then more or less set.

I'm a little confused by this bit.  Are you saying that there is no dictated right or wrong for A + B @ 20 degrees on the first sunday of lent, type rationale?

If so fair enough, but I belive (and have seen) there is room for adjustment (of all settings) for ambient temperatures, track condition, track type etc etc...  It's all that we ever tweaked in FFord...

No I am saying they should have NO influence on Asterix or mine camber settings. They may have an influenece on his initial settings, but bare no significance on whether he should amend his settings whether he is at Croft in 20 degrees or Oulton Park in 10 degrees I would be surprised if 'A' competitive Westfield using the same tyres should differ from 'B' there can't be that much in it, if there is 'A' is either driven not to it's full potential or is set up wrong.

FWIW, the only time I would amend my camber is if I change tyre width, compound or construction. If I was honest, it has taken me a year to find the correct camber front and rear using the same Crossply slicks and so I wouldn't change tyres. As I state I have found an even optimum temperature which visually is identified in tyre wear  

I set toe to assist in braking and reduction in understeer not for generation of heat, camber amongst others does that for my SEIW

[zoso]

IMO camber settings should not be dictated by tyre tread amount, surfaces, ambient temperatures, different circuits, age of tyres it should be established what works for you and your car and then more or less set.

I'm a little confused by this bit.  Are you saying that there is no dictated right or wrong for A + B @ 20 degrees on the first sunday of lent, type rationale?

If so fair enough, but I belive (and have seen) there is room for adjustment (of all settings) for ambient temperatures, track condition, track type etc etc...  It's all that we ever tweaked in FFord...

No I am saying they should have NO influence on Asterix or mine camber settings. They may have an influenece on his initial settings, but bare no significance on whether he should amend his settings whether he is at Croft in 20 degrees or Oulton Park in 10 degrees I would be surprised if 'A' competitive Westfield using the same tyres should differ from 'B' there can't be that much in it, if there is 'A' is either driven not to it's full potential or is set up wrong.

FWIW, the only time I would amend my camber is if I change tyre width, compound or construction. If I was honest, it has taken me a year to find the correct camber front and rear using the same Crossply slicks and so I wouldn't change tyres. As I state I have found an even optimum temperature which visually is identified in tyre wear  

I set toe to assist in braking and reduction in understeer not for generation of heat, camber amongst others does that for my SEIW

Fair enough, I guess things are different in club competition...  I'm used to working with/being taught for 5-10 people per car with full data etc etc etc...

Getting a good base setting is important as you say, and much more than that you'll be chasing 10ths and 100ths...

[conibear]

Westfields have forces lifting the front off the ground thus us Westfield drivers all struggle getting heat into the fronts. In comparison a FF doesn't have these forces and are probably more sensitive to minor adjustments  I have seen many FF wear the inside edge of their tyres, horses for courses one feels

Although, I run 1.5 degrees neg camber, I think Asterix should be offered a good standard base to start with and then he can fettle from there   Why not start with 1 degree or better still ask Avon