Advice needed on a turbo'd pinto

[RobK]

Many thanks for the previous advice, we are new to Westfields so sorry if the questions are basic.

We have a narrow bodied westfield fitted with a 2.0 Pinto that has a Garret turbo fitted. The car has 2 boost settings, one is dyno'd at 158bhp with full boost dyno'd at 189bhp. We only drive the car at the lower boost setting.

The car seems to be running very hot! No water temp guage installed (we are fitting one this week). Today we checked the compression levels of the cylinders just to get an idea for any future tests or problems. The reading we got (mearsured as Bar) are :-

No1     8.50

No2     9.75

No3     9.25

No4     9.00

These were taken with the engine hot and the throttle closed. We are to try again mid week with the throttle open (found this to be best after doing some searches and reading up on this forum)

We are concerned that the CR is low on No1 Cylinder, would a difference of 1.25 Bar be considered a problem? I had assumed that the CR would have been reduced by Turbotechnics when they fitted the turbo. We're not sure what levels of boost we are running at present (we are fitting a boost guage mid week!), what would be considered a safe level of boost given the CR?

Even on gentle driving today with cold weather the coolant seems to be boiling when we stop and listen to the expansion tank, the tank needs regular topping up because of this. The spark plugs indicate the engine is running very hot or lean (i think), they are white with no deposits and we have had to replace one plug today as it looks to have overheated within 200 miles of being fitted! The fueling is some sort of injection system with 2 additional injectors that are turned on during cold starting only).

The turbo seems to have both oil and water cooling, is this the case? We have been looking at installing an inline electric cooling pump so that we can run the circulation and cooling fan in an attempt to stop the water getting any hotter. Is this a worthwhile addition?

Any advice is appreciated, we are hoping to get it fixed before the inevitable engine failure! Sorry its such a long post.  

Rob

[stu999]

QUOTE

We are concerned that the CR is low on No1 Cylinder, would a difference of 1.25 Bar be considered a problem?

As a general rule of thumb, a difference of more than 5% is considered to be a problem. Did you run through the tappet cleareances first?

QUOTE

what would be considered a safe level of boost given the CR?

Depends on what the CR should be. Sadly, this cannot be gleaned from the readings you have obtained which is the compression *pressure* at stater motor speed, as opposed to the CR.

QUOTE

The turbo seems to have both oil and water cooling, is this the case?

It is possible. But without seeing it (or knowing the exact make/model of turbo) it is difficult to say. So many variants out there...

QUOTE

We have been looking at installing an inline electric cooling pump so that we can run the circulation and cooling fan in an attempt to stop the water getting any hotter. Is this a worthwhile addition?

Possibly - but only when you have sorted the existng problem(s) out. Running lean/weak/hot, loosing water, and a marked difference in compression indicates that there is something that wants fixing.

More investigation required methinks...

[perksy]

Compression Readings in 'old money'  

   1                2                  3                   4

123 psi       141 psi         134 psi           130 psi

Be interested to know what was done to the engine before the Turbo was fitted  

Which ECU are you using  

[RobK]

Many thanks for the replies  

We have emailed turbotechnics hoping they can check there files and tell us exactly what mods have been done to the engine. I have a feeling they have done very little internal mods  

There external stuff looks spot on though, looks a quality job   . We didn't buy the car with thoughts of driving it steady!  We are hoping to visit some tracks and club meets etc  

I think we will have a better idea once we get the guages all working. I am concerned with what looks like very hot plugs that are running lean. When we had her MOT'd he said it was running rich at idle.

I'm concerned about the compression and detonation. I know its not an exact reading with a guage but it must give some indication? From what i can understand with a CR of 10-1 (which it will be at full throttle), these are the boost levels possible before detonation...

95RON     0psi

98RON     2psi

100RON   4psi

105RON   6psi

Can we use these figures with a comp guage or do we need the volumes measuring exactly? Are the volumes something a DIY man can measure or does it need leaving to the experts? The engine idles poorly, but pulls well once off idle and feels very fast once the turbo is in. It seems to sound wrong top end of the revs, but we are not sure what revs as the guage doesn't work. We may well be running into the rev limiter and thats set to 6500.

We have a few other Pinto engines, our thoughts are it will be better to build another engine designed to run the turbo properly and just take it easy with this one and hope it lasts the summer out ready for a fully rebuild engine to be fitted over this next winter.

I know there are a number of experts on here with turbo'd engines and we are hoping to pick there brains over the coming months  

[RobK]

We will check what ECU is fitted and report back later this week

Many thanks

[andy jacques]

i would suggest a dry compression test with throttle open, then a wet test with the throttle open, compare the numbers, if the figure rises on the wet test this will show a potential piston/rings fault. if the compressions do not move will suggest a valve issue.

A wet test is the addition of engine oil through the spark plug hole,only a few c/c though.

However,if you are suffering overheating issues I would look at headgasket faults and thermostat opperation, check also radiator flow. crap in the rad equals overheating.

blowing headgasket will also affect compression readings.

hope this helps

[stu999]

QUOTE

I think we will have a better idea once we get the guages all working. I am concerned with what looks like very hot plugs that are running lean. When we had her MOT'd he said it was running rich at idle.

The difficulty is that without a way of actually measuring the exhaust gas whilst under load, you can only guess whether it is running rich, lean etc. The exhaust gas measurement at idle is exactly that, the measurement at idle, ans gives virtually no indication of the mixture strength elsewhere in the rev range/throttle positions...

The 'hot' looking plugs may be down to a weak mixture. Ity may be becuase the ignition timing is too far retarded. Or it maybe that the plugs themselves are not a suitable grade for the engine and its state of tune.

QUOTE

I'm concerned about the compression and detonation. I know its not an exact reading with a guage but it must give some indication?

Sadly it gives little to no indication of CR. Very simply, this is because that for various reasons the chances of getting the cylinder to be 100% 'full' of air/fuel is nigh on impossible at starter motor speeds. Obviously a partial 'fill' will lower the pressure reading obtained (for example, due to losses from valve overlap), as will mechanical problems potentially affecting the readings.

QUOTE

Can we use these figures with a comp guage or do we need the volumes measuring exactly? Are the volumes something a DIY man can measure or does it need leaving to the experts?

The volumes of the cylinder and combustion chamber need to be measured exactly. It *can* be measured accurately and fairly easily by a DIY man, with a little patience, and some basic tools to do the job. Beg/borrow/steal a tuning book, a decent one will explain the procedure, often aided by piccies. IMHO books written by David Vizard are the ones to aim for. Technical jargon and bulls*** is kept to a minimum. IIRC he wrote a book about Pinto's too

[RobK]

[quote name=stu999' date='Feb. 19 2007,180]

QUOTE

Beg/borrow/steal a tuning book, a decent one will explain the procedure, often aided by piccies. IMHO books written by David Vizard are the ones to aim for. Technical jargon and bulls*** is kept to a minimum. IIRC he wrote a book about Pinto's too

He has written a book on the pinto, we have  a copy and have started to read it. Also have a tuning book by "someone else". The David Vizard is the best by far. Sadly we dont have as much time now that its a law the Westfield has to be driven if its sunny and the roads are dry  

Rules are rules!! One of the best and most interesting things i have done buying this Westfield!!      Loving it so far

[andy jacques]

From your initial discription of the faults I think you need to get back to basics.if the vehicle is overheating and bubbleing,using coolant and has a lower compresion on one cylinder, the likleyhood is a headgasket issue. Forget about compression ratios and ecu's for now find the coolant loss and overheating issue and the rest of the job will probably come good,that is mixture etc, as injection times are all programmed into the ecu.you will however probably have to check the timing. this can be done with a strobe by any competent local workshop or mechanic as a job on the side. check radiator cap and radiator flow also.

[cng1]

I'm wholeheartedly in agreement with Andy here, the pinto is a simple beast and it's but an afternoons work to get the head off, inspect everything and replace the head gasket and get it all back together again.  In doing so you'll be able to inspect the bores, the valves, the seats, the head itself and the gasket, which are the top potential causes of your woes.  Whilst you're at it a replacement water pump is about 20 quid and the bearings  and seals on them do go and it's a very easy swap to do.  Since the water pump is driven by the fan belt it will allow you to set the belt tension.

[stu999]

And you will then have the opportunity to work out your CR too...    

[RobK]

This is a picture of the circuit board of the ECU, any advice on it would be appreciated.

We can see no identification numbers or words except the word "superchips" on a sticker.

**EDIT......Apologies if the picture doesn't show, i have spent an hour attempting it upload an avatar and the picture of the ECU. For some reason my laptop rarely shows other people pictures and at the moment wont show me these 2 i have just added    

[stu999]

The picture and your avatar has come out OK (for me anyway!) I cant really tell from the circuit board, but a picture of the 'box' may reveal more...

[RobK]

Ok, will post a picture of the box later.

It just looks like a project box from maplins etc! Doesn't have any writing on it. I will take a picture of the connection on the back as well, someone may recognise the connection

Thanks again

Rob

[tex]

i would also take into account that the pinto can run quite hot in a 7 type car - a really good radiator is essential - my 2.1 is running around 90 plus at the moment and needs to drop a bit (working on that - new rad). i would also think that pinto's were never designed for a turbo - its asking a lot for an old engine design.. there arent many out there that i have come across because i think people just dont want the hassle for the result - better off with a different engine - but as your probably thinking - 'naaaa!' too much chew on - been there... good quality gasket may help if you have raised the boost from what it was designed for originally..