Heel toe question..

[Boomy]

You could try driving without using the clutch at all , just accelerator and gearshifter , its quite easy once you get the hang .

only with a dog box and upshifts though

It can be done with an 'ordinary' box too...      

I once drove my Mini about for three months with no clutch. It was far easier to change starter motors...

Yeah, i have done it in almost every car i have owned (only a few times to demo it!) and once said i would bring a broken down diesel transit back from near Tower Bridge in London to Northfleet one early morning.

The clutch was totaly gone.

The trip back was interesting because once i got going i had to judge every set of lights i came across so i caught them on green.

I made it though by simply doing the usual rev the engine, slip her into gear, technique.

Going down was a wee bit harder than changing up but it was no real hardship.

The manager at the time was well chuffed with me and had assumed i was joking until i pulled into the yard

[samcooke]

QUOTE

Er.....  What can one say !!

Term 'heal and toe' demands a bit more complexity than that, there's three pedals remember.

If you get some tuition from an MSA official or study some footage of a professional driver, your understand it's not as easy as many think. Personally, I think it is very difficult to master, trying to implement it as a novice on the road could be dangerous and on track,  your be slow  I doubt it matters whether your heal or toe is either on the brake or throttle pedal, thats personal choice, I'd think.

But if your good at it, it would speed up your reactions and if your that good at it, go racing.    

I've read that post three times and not a single bit of it makes sense, even once I've got past the dreadful English.  

[Bluerallye]

I think he's trying to point out that there's three pedals and only two feet.  Your post implies you simply stab the throttle on downshifts before getting back on the brakes rather than braking and blipping the throttle simultaneously with the right foot.

I have to disagree with his comments that trying on the road is dangerous though.  As with everything you need to practice and a clear road and a nice long approach before stopping is how i started it.  Trying it for the first time on the M25 at rush hour may carry some risks though.

[scruffythefirst]

I learnt to do it by blipping the accelerator while sitting with my foot on the brake at traffic lights in neutral.  No danger of crashing whatso ever.

I used it all the time in my second cavalier which did the usual ecotec thing of refusing to idle.

The inertia in the engine of the dax (heavy steel crank and rods, full weight flywheel) and the slightly agricultural box is a nightmare to change down quickly, and now I've sorted the pedals and can heel  n toe its halves the time for downchanges which makes driving quickly so much easier and smoother.

Definately worth learning and I use it all the time, weather pootling or hooning

[Ian Podmore]

After you have mastered operating both pedals with one foot when stationary, it's best to then move onto blipping the throttle whilst braking. Don't worry about matching the rev's to start with, wait until you can maintain steady state braking whilst blipping before doing the whole thing for real.  

In your Westfield it is vital to get the pedal heights set correctly, the brake should be approx level with the accelerator when the brake is depressed IMO.

Oh, and I always heel and toe whatever car I'm in, except an auto of course.

[a4gom]

You could try driving without using the clutch at all , just accelerator and gearshifter , its quite easy once you get the hang .

Get it wrong though and it could be expensive.

Once missed the slot changing from 4th to 5th at about 70 in the wifes punto, didn't go in quite as expected, the cam belt didn't like it.

I had no clutch but I have to admit I didn't really need to be going at that speed. Luckily for me it was just the belt no bent valves etc.

[Tubs]

I learned to drive when working for my brother on his farm. Tractors didn't have syncros in those days    so the only way to change gear was double de-clutch for going both up and down the gears.

When I started driving cars on the road, double d had become a habit and it seemed the logical step to go to heel and toe.

Now I heel and toe automatically, except in the wifes Focus, which, for some strange reason, has a half ton flywheel that makes 'blipping' the throttle a waste of time.

Tubs

PS When I took my driving test my mini's handbrake didn't work. So for the hill start I appeared to put the handbrake on but actually kept the foot brake on and toe and heeled to start. The tester never noticed and so I passed.

[V 8]

When I started driving cars on the road, double d had become a habit and it seemed the logical step to go to heel and toe.

Get your tap dancing lessons here

[rm163603]

I think it's important with a bike engine on track otherwise it hammers the dogs in the gearbox and as others have said can cause the rear end to lock up.

I learned to do it by making myself do it on the road all the time so I also disagree that it's dangerous on the road.  For a while now I've been practising my left foot braking but that it much harder!

I've got big feet so I use the ball of the foot on the brake and the side of my foot on the throttle.

The main thing I struggled with was to learn to trust braking with only part of my foot on the pedal. Initially this feels unsafe but it has never been an issue in reality.

I think pedal setup is critical as well. What seems to be important is that when the brake is at the biting point is is roughly level with the throttle (with my method anyway). Also your car needs to have nicely progressive brakes too as a overservoud setup makes it tricky.

It's also worth noting that some cars (notably VW group) don't allow the throttle to have any effect when the brake is being pressed although I'm not sure if this totally prevents it being possible.

Just my 2p anyway )

[Tubs]

When I started driving cars on the road, double d had become a habit and it seemed the logical step to go to heel and toe.

Get your tap dancing lessons here

But I've never seen a tap dancing.

Boom Tish

Tubs

[robthehungrymonkey]

I don't find it natural and have always been interested as all my previous cars' pedals made heel and toeing near enough impossible. And now, as I don't find it natural is quite a satisfying when you manage to blip perfectly whilst in the westy.

Adds to the "thrill" and satisfaction even when driving slowly for a novice such as myself.

[KerryS]

Oh, and I always heel and toe whatever car I'm in, except an auto of course.

Wondered why it didn't work in the tintop...    

One thing that really bugged me after the swap to TBs on the Westy was that the snap throttle response was so poor and I couldn't H&T; better now after RR setup. It's a technique my Dad taught me on the Rover P4 I learned to drive on and I always tened to use it on road cars until the auto boxes came along.

Kerry

[pistonbroke]

Used to use it on me pedal bike  

[Morbius]

You talk about it like it's a black art.

It's really not. You just poke the accelerator before you let the clutch up.

I can do it and I'm a spastic.

That's double declutching, which I do a lot, but you have to lift the clutch in neutral and blip before dipping it again and selecting the lower gear. double declutching up the box requires you to lift the clutch on a closed throttle to slow down the layshaft before engaging the next higher gear.

I had to do this when the clutch went on my Westy shortly after I built it.  I managed to drive from Cardiff to Newport without graunching more than a couple of times.  I had the same problem in my old Triumph Herald, I drove from New Addington to Caterham where I used to live with my parents.  Both cars have the advantage of a low first gear, so you can start them in gear when stopped in traffic.

[Morbius]

I think it's important with a bike engine on track otherwise it hammers the dogs in the gearbox and as others have said can cause the rear end to lock up.

I learned to do it by making myself do it on the road all the time so I also disagree that it's dangerous on the road.  For a while now I've been practising my left foot braking but that it much harder!

I've got big feet so I use the ball of the foot on the brake and the side of my foot on the throttle.

The main thing I struggled with was to learn to trust braking with only part of my foot on the pedal. Initially this feels unsafe but it has never been an issue in reality.

I think pedal setup is critical as well. What seems to be important is that when the brake is at the biting point is is roughly level with the throttle (with my method anyway). Also your car needs to have nicely progressive brakes too as a overservoud setup makes it tricky.

It's also worth noting that some cars (notably VW group) don't allow the throttle to have any effect when the brake is being pressed although I'm not sure if this totally prevents it being possible.

Just my 2p anyway )

Remember that most bike boxes are constant mesh, so you can change without the clutch provided that you are not accelerating or braking hard at the time.

Locking the rears on a downshift is due to not getting the revs to match the layshaft/roadspeed and has nothing to do with heel and toe or double declutching.

You can double declutch without heel and toeing if you drive like the IAM tell you and get all your braking over with before you decide what gear you need to accelerate away from the hazard.

On a track and being the last of the late brakers, you need to stay on the brake pedal whilst you blip the throttle.  IMHO this is useless if you do not bring the clutch up at the same time so  that you spin the layshaft (CECs only for this bit) to save the synchro from having to match the speed of the two cogs that are about to engage.

As rm163603 says, for this to work the throttle pedal needs to line up roughly with the brake pedal when it is doing the business, as it does on my Westy.  This allows me to hit the throttle with the ooutside of my foot when the ball of my foot is still on the brake pedal (providing I am wearing the right shoes - grippy enough and not too wide).

In the tin top, the pedals are a bit to far apart to do this with any great confidence, and the touchiness of the servo on the brake means that if I get it wrong, I end up braking harder for an instant and unsettle the suspension.