O/T: Discipline Procedures

[Martin Keene]

To cut a long story short, I f##ked up at work on Friday and damaged some doors. The doors, 5 off, were glazed and worth about £500.

I owned up, admitted I dropped a bollock and on the way home, stopped at one of the directors houses (very small company, might sound wrong, but trust me it wouldn't be) and told him what I'd done.

All seemed OK. Now I've had a phone call this morning from the other director and he is saying he wants to give me a written warning. Now I've checked my contract and it says:

10. Disciplinary Rules

First Stage: Verbal Warnings x 2

Second Stage: Verbal Warning Plus Written Warning

Third Stage: Dismissal

Instant Dismissal: Gross Misconduct (i.e., Theft, Contravening of Health & Safety Policy, etc)

Now, for reasons I don't won't to go into on here, I don't want to walk in all guns blazing and say you can't do that etc.

But even with my limited knowledge of Employment Law, if the contract layouts a Disciplinary Procedure, then it has to be stuck to. And if I haven't had a Verbal warning for anything, he surely can't jump striaght to a Written one, can he?

 

[Mat Jackson]

I "think" that in employment law you can go straight to written warning and even dismissal for gross misconduct (including breach of safety regs etc).  However, as you owned up to the mistake I can not see any reason why this would be considered gross misconduct?

BTW I am not a lawyer and this is just based on what we have done at work in the past.

Good luck,

Mat.

PS I think you are taking the right approach by not going in all guns blazing.  IT sounds as though you have a good relationship woth the boses so may be best to sit down and talk through your concerns and understand their reasons.  I think FWWs are deleted from your record within 6 months.

Mat

[Renmure]

For reasons that now fade into the distance, I did a degree level course in Employment Law. (it seemed like a handy thing for a Chartered Physiotherapist to be knowledgeable in... NOT)

My recollection is that the employer can jump to any point on the scale depending on how they view the severity of the offence. That obviously can work 'the other way' so to speak in that if an employee does something which would otherwise result in dismissal they have the scope to issue a repremand/warning/final warning instead. In larger companies Union reps usually get involved to 'negotiate' the point on the scale.

Jim

[Eccentric_Rich]

My recollection is that the employer can jump to any point on the scale depending on how they view the severity of the offence.

That’s correct.

I suppose your Director wanting to give you a written warning may mean that although you owned up to your mistake straightaway they may look at the incident as carelessness or negligence on your part rather than a genuine mistake.

Obviously you know what happened but my advice is to be open and apologetic when you have your meeting with them and accept the written warning if that's how they decide to deal with it.

Take it on the chin whatever happens - keep it in perspective, it's only a few doors after all. Nobody died did they!

Richard.

[Mark Stanton]

QUOTE

Take it on the chin whatever happens - keep it in perspective, it's only a few doors after all. Nobody died did they!

and start making some enquiries elsewhere lining up other job interviews        

Then once you've found somewhere better, with more pay, more holiday and better conditions ............... you can tell Mr Other Director where to stick his job      

[Martin Keene]

and start making some enquiries elsewhere lining up other job interviews        

Well in front of you mate...

[MVS]

Could he mean a written record of a verbal warning, which he has given/ about to give you?

Reason why I ask is that discipline/grievance procedures have moved on since

QUOTE

QUOTE

10. Disciplinary Rules

First Stage: Verbal Warnings x 2

Second Stage: Verbal Warning Plus Written Warning

Third Stage: Dismissal

Instant Dismissal: Gross Misconduct (i.e., Theft, Contravening of Health & Safety Policy, etc)

You used to have up to 2 verbals that lapsed over six months.

Now there has to be a written explanation of a verbal warning which stays on your file ad infinitum, so this is why I ask if it is a true written warning. As I understand it you get 1 of these now before moving to the next level which would be 2 formal written warnings.

Current DTI .pdf on the subject

Maybe your boss knows the new rules, but the paperwork has not been updated? Our contracts for our staff have appendices with this sort of stuff in updated regularly as the regulations change, which they do fairly regularly.

I have no legal background so please do not take this as gospel, but it is as I understand it as an employer.

Hope this helps

[Mark Stanton]

Good on ya  Martin there's plenty of work and career prospects out there at the moment  

Mr Other Director seems to be someone that you can trust (not)        

[Martin Keene]

Good on ya  Martin there's plenty of work and career prospects out there at the moment  

Mr Other Director seems to be someone that you can trust (not)        

If there is I can't seem to find them...

Not sure if a move to the building game was such a hot idea or not. I don't feel like I'm learning enough about building to be able to stay in this industry long term on the other hand I have now been away from engineering for 18 months already.

[Katflaps]

Take it on the chin whatever happens - keep it in perspective, it's only a few doors after all. Nobody died did they!

and start making some enquiries elsewhere lining up other job interviews        

Then once you've found somewhere better, with more pay, more holiday and better conditions ............... you can tell Mr Other Director where to stick his job      

I would go cap in hand very apologetic to the meeting perhaps the other director may have had a bad day and it was a knee jerk reaction and has had time to think about over a few days. At the meeting things might go your way plus he may have spoke to the other director and come to a more sensible conclusion

If when you come to the meeting and he does take the written warning route which he is quite within his legal rights to do so, then take it on the chin apologise then do what mark suggested

For me accidents happen and people genuinely dangler up plus they have insurance for this sort of thing. I would as an employer and your work/work ethics are good with no previous infringement then as a manager I would take it on the chin and say fine its happened lets make sure nothing similar happens like that again & move on. I would also want to know why the doors where left in a venerable position in the 1st place, perhaps there could be something put in place to safe guard against such an ACCIDENT, after all that’s what it was.

Jeff

[jeff oakley]

Martin, you need to look at the terms and conditions in detail of the company you work for. In them they will lay down a company procedure, which is not the same company to company, although should follow logic.

Now for any punishment to be levied the first thing they have to do is to have a disciplinary meeting where you can have a witness and the facts of the case are discussed. Following that the company will deliberate and then issue appropriate punishment. They can go to any level including dismissal if it is warrented, and you should be offered an appeal.

Now in your case the director has without a hearing decided your puishment! Any tribunal would laugh at that and you would win assuming you claimed.

Without all the facts it is hard to advise but on the face of it you cocked up admitted it, it is not worthy of a written warning, verbal if they wanted to be mean. In similar circumstances our company would issue a letter of concern pointing out your errors and urging caution in future. By doing what they have they are going to loose you as a result of a decision formed in anger.

Wait and see what if anything happens but read your contract and handbook so you know exactly what fact.

[Mark Stanton]

QUOTE

Not sure if a move to the building game was such a hot idea or not.

WHAT PM me ................ what do you do There's a chronic shortage of folks in construction industry at present            

[Bananaman]

Not sure if a move to the building game was such a hot idea or not.

WHAT PM me ................ what do you do There's a chronic shortage of folks in construction industry at present            

This is true Martin...

I work with many large house builders (they build small ones as well... )

They are all after technical people, if you have a knolage of Cad and an engineering background then they would be very interested......

Andy

[Liam]

Martin, you need to look at the terms and conditions in detail of the company you work for.

Jeff is absolutely right.

The rules on disciplinary and grievance procedures were changed in October 2004.

1. They should set out the circumstances in writing giving adequate information for you to be able to determine the reasons for a disciplinary hearing and inviting you to a meeting. You should receive adequate notice of this. Usually, but not essentially, 48 hrs to allow you adequate time to prepare a response the the alleged misdemeanor.

2.  The meeting, at which you may be accompanied by a work colleague or union official, must allow all parties to explain their case prior to any decision.

3. The decision must be communicated to you  in writing.

4. You have the right of appeal and the person to whom that is made should be  in the letter to you (it should actually be in your company's  D & G procedure which they are legally obliged to have). It is normally  a more senior person other than held the disciplinary hearing, but that may depend on the size of the company. You appear to have two directors so the other one would hear it unless your disciplinary hearing is held by a lower level manager.

5. A further meeting must be held to hear the appeal and the final  outcome must be communicated in writing.

Warnings generally remain on file for 12 months.

Although relationships may be a bit strained, life is too short to allow it to become a problem. Might it be better to sit it out until the warning, if it is pusued, expires b efore seeking alternatives?

[Mark Stanton]

However .......................... IF and its a big IF    

If Martins director wants to issue a written warning and Martin feels his days are numbered following his meeting .................. then its best to do one    

Whatever legislation is in place ................. if you're out then out you go ..................... you could stay and fight your cause and be safe in the knowledge that you are 100% correct and the law is with you ................... but how will that look on your CV       "Troublemaker"  

But there again perhaps we're all considering the negative side of things ..................... perhaps all will come good and no harm done