Any legal experts out there?

[windy]

I need some advice on getting a refund for some returned goods that a supplier cannot tell me whether they have received back or not. When asked "did you receive the returned goods" they cannot answer YES or NO. I smell a rat!

Can a small claims court issue a subpoena to establish whether said supplier received them or not or am I wasting my time? Will this cost me any money? Do subpoenas only get issued to third parties to help with establishing the facts in a case or can they be raised on the individual prior to a hearing?

I am hoping a letter from the court may prompt this person to pay up.

Any help much apreciated.

Thanks in advance

[JimNoble]

IANAL but as I understand it small claims court verdicts are reached on the "balance of probabilities" (rather than "beyond reasonable doubt"). ie you state your case, they [optionally] state their case in defence, and the court decides who they believe more.

Can't see how they could prove they never received the returned items, so the court would be deciding between "we never received them" and "I definitely sent them"...

Jim

[Eastern_Westie]

I'm guessing that you didn't get any proof of postage (receipt from Mr Postie or courier)? If you did, then the claim is against Royal Mail (subject to their limit of liability).

[Blatman]

Were the good paid for by credit card less than 90 days ago? If so, it's their problem. They will refund you.

If not, you need either proof of posting, or to have sent it on a signed for service like recorded mail or registered mail, or you need to have sent it by courier. If you have no proof of posting, no credit card insurance and didn't send it on a signed for service or by courier, it'll be your word against theirs in court, which is not a good basis for a claim, IMHO...

[Barry Ashcroft]

Were the good paid for by credit card less than 90 days ago? If so, it's their problem. They will refund you.

Thats what I thought but when I returned some parts for several hundred pounds to a supplier they refused to refund me saying they would only sell them on my behalf at a reduced rate. I contacted my credit dard company who said they counld not get involved with disputes involving returns for refunds only if I never received the parts in the first place I even stated I was returning them because they were od poor quality to be told that that was a matter of opinion and between myself and the supplier only.

[DanB]

Yeah, well credit card company employees being either ignorant of the law or lying weasels is hardly news...  

[Blatman]

Too right. Sometimes, they need to be "encouraged"...

And an interesting piece of news on credit card use abroad...

The appeal court recently ruled that credit card companies have to offer the customer the same level of service for goods and services bought abroad as goods bought at home, and that includes goods bought on line. Excellent

[windy]

Yes I have proof of posting & I had my bank on the case to get my money back, as soon as I knew the guy was messing me around.

Problem is the bank & the post office although seemingly helpful have not got me all my money back, only some of it. Its a bit more complicated. The 90 days thing only applies to the goods making their way to me from the supplier, not returning them, so I've been told. If you know different & I've been told porkies then do I have a case to take this further with my card? The dispute was logged on the credit card system well within the 90 day period.

Is there any way I can find out some history of the company? If the court can assess the past history of this guy & find out its already dodgy would this have a bearing on the decision the court makes?

Can't see how they could prove they never received the returned items, so the court would be deciding between "we never received them" and "I definitely sent them"...

Yes that's my problem. Not exactly clear cut. Is this worth pursuing or just forget about it but name & shame supplier on all the forums instead?

[Thrustyjust]

Graham,is this the same company that we have discussed privately in the past?

[Rob Navin]

Windy

Why not take Matt round and inform the said company that he will be conducting ALL further negotiations, and he will do whatever he needs to do to resolve the matter in your favor.

If it was me, I'd pay up !  

[Blatman]

Trading standards would be my next call. Ask them about the chances of gettig your money back as well as whether the credit card co are playing ball. They'll know for sure.

[windy]

Graham,is this the same company that we have discussed privately in the past?

Unfortuately yes

Blatters, I will try Trading Standards then.

[DanB]

Under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 the credit card company is as liable as the supplier if the goods aren't of satisfactory quality.  If they weren't of satisfactory quality (i.e. they don't meet the condition implied by the Sale of Goods Act) then you're entitled to return them and get your money back, and that applies to the credit card company as much as it does to the supplier.  This is the result of section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act which provides that:

'75  Liability of creditor for breaches by supplier

(1)     If the debtor under a debtor-creditor-supplier agreement falling within section 12(b) or © has, in relation to a transaction financed by the agreement, any claim against the supplier in respect of a misrepresentation or breach of contract, he shall have a like claim against the creditor, who, with the supplier, shall accordingly be jointly and severally liable to the debtor.

(2)     Subject to any agreement between them, the creditor shall be entitled to be indemnified by the supplier for loss suffered by the creditor in satisfying his liability under subsection (1), including costs reasonably incurred by him in defending proceedings instituted by the debtor.'

This only applies to credit cards, however.  Different rules apply to debit cards.  Thank the Lord for LexisNexis - it's almost worth the £800 a year I pay for it...  

[Blatman]

Thank the Lord for LexisNexis - it's almost worth the £800 a year I pay for it...  

I wonder if the relevant departments at work have a subscription?

I wonder if I could blag the username and password

*Puts black hat on and reaches for SQL code book*

[DanB]

It's possible - a few in-house solicitors in large firms that I know have access to it.  Be careful though - if you're even vaguely legally minded, it's something you can lose yourself in for hours.  I even found myself doing the LexisNexis version of an AutoGoogle to see which cases were included in LexisNexis that I'd appeared in...