RICHARD+PHILIP Posted February 18, 2005 Posted February 18, 2005 I was supposed to be going out for a run around sussex with Lotus owners club SELOC on saturday but the run was cancelled the reasons listed below. The run for this meeting has been cancelled, this is due to the large numbers of people coming. In order to ensure that we are all protected from any liability we will be rerunning this run next month with an MSA permit, unfortunatley they cannot get us one in time why should the MSA get innvolved with a group of people travelling along the same bit of road at the smae time? do we get a msa Licence for the convoy to stoneleigh or other area meetings or is this the Lotus club getting a little over zealous with the rules? Quote
studbuckle Posted February 18, 2005 Posted February 18, 2005 SELOC are (like wscc) affiliated to the MSA, therefore they have to abide by the MSA rules and regs. One of those relates to a touring assembly. Defined as being a pre-arranged point to point or circular drive of more than 15 vehicles. If your run matched these critera then an MSA certificate of Excemption must be applied for. That's the MSA bit and it means that as a member of SELOC you will then be covered by public liability insurance and the organisors can not be held responsible for any act occuring on the run. It also gives good standing with the police as the Cert of E will only be applicable if the MSA route Liason Officers have given their approval in advance. These RLO's work with the police and traffic organisiations in their respective areas to avoid any conflict of interests. Hope you enjoy the run when it happens Quote
Blatman Posted February 18, 2005 Posted February 18, 2005 The MSA permit also exempts you from presecution under the Criminal Justice Act, I think. Under the act, the authorities have the power to declare any gathering of 6 or more people as illegal, if they should so desire, and can then start making arrests... Either way, SELOC are behaving entirely properly in this matter. Well done to them. Quote
Frau Vesty Posted February 18, 2005 Posted February 18, 2005 presecution Is that an evil combination of prosecution and persecution Or is it defined as "the decision to prosecute before anything illegal has taken place" Quote
Blatman Posted February 18, 2005 Posted February 18, 2005 Proof read it twice too... It should of course be prosecution... Quote
adhawkins Posted February 18, 2005 Posted February 18, 2005 Or is it defined as "the decision to prosecute before anything illegal has taken place" It worked in 'Minority Report' Andy Quote
Toby Mack Posted February 18, 2005 Posted February 18, 2005 Defined as being a pre-arranged point to point or circular drive of more than 15 vehicles. Are you sure? Where does this definition come from? the only reference I can find to numbers is for competative (timed events) where 12 cars get automatic approval under the Motor Vehicle regs. (a seperate thing the the certificate of exemption as far as I know) I was told (by an RLO) that a touring assembly of 12 cars or less still needed a certificate of exemption. The criteria being that it was an organised route (although not madatory or timed). If you can point me at the regs that state over 15 cars I would be much obliged as it will save a lot of hassle in the future! That confusion aside, I agree that these things are a necessary evil. It only takes one of two unofficial events to go pear shaped (as little as a NIMBY complaining to the police) and it makes it difficult for everyone else. Better to play things by the book- the hardest part of getting the exemption is understanding the form you have to fill in! Toby Quote
studbuckle Posted February 19, 2005 Posted February 19, 2005 it may be 12 not 15. I don't have a copy of the blue book to hand. I was informed by the MSA 2 years ago that the 12 or 15 number applied for getting the certificate of exemption from the MSA. Less than that and it wasn't required. It is my intention to get this definative and produce a consultation document for the club to refer to Quote
Pete Collins Posted February 19, 2005 Posted February 19, 2005 Many (20ish) years ago my local motor club used to run "12 car events". The reason being that more than 12 cars following the same route required RAC permission - and police. Even with 12 cars, or less, we used to submit the proposed route to the police weeks before the event. They would check that the same route, or part of, had not been recently used by any other local club and that we were not intending to run through a "black spot" area. In theory the same rules applied to treasure hunts although I don't suppose that many organisers abided by them - or even knew that they existed. Quote
RICHARD+PHILIP Posted February 20, 2005 Author Posted February 20, 2005 Apparently it's 12 cars although the run was cancelled 13 cars (12 lotus & 1 westfield just happened to turn up at the same time and go for a pootle in smaller groups A very nice bunch of people they are to! Phil MSA Licence applied for next time Quote
Toby Mack Posted February 20, 2005 Posted February 20, 2005 studbuckle, I would be very interested to find out what the definitive answer is. I had assumed that if we stuck to less that 12 cars (our club runs 12 car navigation events too) it would be ok but the RLO still wanted to approve it. I have a feeling that he was just being careful (didn't want an event running he did not know about) but, in the end he was very helpful so it caused no problems to fall in line. Toby Quote
markcoopers Posted February 20, 2005 Posted February 20, 2005 This is very interesting and worrying in equal measure. The Cambs area often have over 12, even 15 cars attend monthly meets, collecting them on route (predetermined end at least). Does this mean that inadvertently we have risked the WSCC and ourselves? Quote
Mark Stanton Posted February 20, 2005 Posted February 20, 2005 It's probably a different matter at a monthly meet, whereby many cars gather but rarely do all cars travel exactly the same route at the same time whereupon you may meet up with others en route. However if you are "organising" a specific route at a given time with a known number of cars ............... Quote
oioi Posted February 20, 2005 Posted February 20, 2005 However if you are "organising" a specific route at a given time with a known number of cars ............... you do not have to get an msa permit so long as you are not part of an affiliated club but it may be prudent to inform the police Quote
scott beeland Posted February 20, 2005 Posted February 20, 2005 Apparently it's 12 cars although the run was cancelled 13 cars (12 lotus & 1 westfield just happened to turn up at the same time and go for a pootle in smaller groups A very nice bunch of people they are to! Phil MSA Licence applied for next time Didn't have you two down as "road goers". Glad to see it Quote
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