Random O/T recycling question and small NHS rant :=o

[Blatman]

Afternoon all. I am helping to dispose of/recycle where possible some items and I have reached my level of what the devil...

There are 2 walking frames to be returned BUT neither the local hospitals nor Age UK will take them, and I understand there is a health and safety question. But they can be assessed, surely...

They are brand new with less than 1 hours use on either of them. I am told by the NHS and Age UK to scrap them. I don't want to because it's a waste (more on waste in a minute).

There is also a whole load of VHS video tapes. The cardboard sleeves are easy enough but again I don't want to put the tapes into general waste/landfill. Any suggestions?

 

Now, the waste thing...

As well as the two walking frames the other "big ticket" item is a pacemaker monitor. It was given to the individual so that the cardiac team can download data about the patient. Amazing. Less amazing (what the devil 1) is that now it is no longer required the advice is to put it in the electrical recycling.

Then (what the devil 2) the advice is that the monitor is "hard coded" to the serial number of the pacemaker and cannot be reprogrammed. Contradicts the next point but I have my doubts about that

what the devil 3, it costs more to re-programme than buy a new one. So is it or is it not re-programmable? The reasoning is that because the device is "linked to the patient" there is a patient confidentiality question. I believe that this is something that could be mitigated fairly easily. Bottom line is, this is for me, almost an unforgiveable waste of our money and I am sure it is the tip of the iceberg. I support our doctors and nurses of course and speaking personally have had nothing but the best treatment when I have needed it. But if it is being run/managed this way then I am now starting to have some sympathy for the government when trying to reign in NHS costs. I do appreciate that somewhere down the line the people that make policy may well be profiting from it (don't get me started) but even so, if we (UK PLC) want to reduce emissions and be more green and all that, then NHS waste needs to be brought in to much MUCH sharper focus, and right now 'cos I am betting it is a significant contributor to our overall emissions count...

 

And breathe...

[Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Chairman]

14 minutes ago, Blatman said:

There is also a whole load of VHS video tapes. The cardboard sleeves are easy enough but again I don't want to put the tapes into general waste/landfill. Any suggestions?

 

In the old days, you'd have just re-cycled them by leaving them under a bush somewhere for the local youth to find...

[Stuart]

Don't think any recycler would welcome the VHS tapes.  Mechanical recycling usually means shredding to separate different materials e.g. the metal springs and the plastic in a VHS tape housing.  But the tape itself would cause major issues in a recycling plant cos it would wrap around everything.  Even if you pull the tape out first, there's more than one type of plastic in the housings so the plastic pieces would need to be identified after shredding.  This can currently only be done with near infra-red lights, cameras and air jets.  But black plastic doesn't reflect infra red so the cameras can't identify what plastic it is.  There has been some research into using terrawaves instead of NIR but I don't think it's reached a practical level yet.

 

NHS I have the same experience.  Still have my Mrs' crutches that she hardly used after her hip replacement. 7 years ago.  Wouldn't take 'em back.  Ditto the high level bog seat that was never taken out of its box (think we sold that).  No idea if the electronics could be reused but that is OK to go in the electrical recycling.  Anything with a PCB contains gold and it gets separated, concentrated into a "copper/precious" stream with is then smelted by secondary copper smelters, with the precious being recovered from the sludge left after the raw copper is electrolysed to get it to high purity. 

 

And definitely tip of the iceberg; waste in the NHS is phenomenal.

[Captain Colonial]

23 minutes ago, Blatman said:

There are 2 walking frames to be returned BUT neither the local hospitals nor Age UK will take them, and I understand there is a health and safety question. But they can be assessed, surely...

The cost of independently sanitising and testing exceeds the cost of buying a new one.

 

24 minutes ago, Blatman said:

There is also a whole load of VHS video tapes. The cardboard sleeves are easy enough but again I don't want to put the tapes into general waste/landfill. Any suggestions?

Rather depends on how many you have.  They’re easy to disassemble down into their component parts and recycle, except for the tape itself.  Depends on how much spare time you have.

 

27 minutes ago, Blatman said:

As well as the two walking frames the other "big ticket" item is a pacemaker monitor. It was given to the individual so that the cardiac team can download data about the patient. Amazing. Less amazing (what the devil 1) is that now it is no longer required the advice is to put it in the electrical recycling.

Then (what the devil 2) the advice is that the monitor is "hard coded" to the serial number of the pacemaker and cannot be reprogrammed. Contradicts the next point but I have my doubts about that

what the devil 3, it costs more to re-programme than buy a new one. So is it or is it not re-programmable?

Because the monitor is linked only to the paired pacemaker and necessary adjustments to it can be made remotely from the cardiac specialist if required, without the need to have the patient return to hospital.  This is particularly convenient and appropriate if the patient is far from home and needs intervention.

 

It has to be utterly secure not because of patient confidentiality but to stop anyone hacking into it and doing something that could harm or kill the patient.  This came about after someone in the States remotely hacked into ex-Vice President Dick Chenney’s pacemaker.  He was not harmed because he had no heart, but it necessitated change.

 

The last thing is, of course, liability, lawsuits and damages, something which the USA started and the UK has adopted.  If they (or any charity) passed out used walkers and such that collapsed or failed, it would be them who would be liable, not the manufacturer.

 

Of course the waste is wrong.  The problem lies not always with the system but with society in general.  As I’ve often said - I like humanity, but it’s people that I can’t stand.

[7Westfield]

interesting about the heart monitor....a year ago I had one from my father, and the company emailed me a shipping label to return it

they even offered to send a shipping box if needed

actually a surprise, given that recycling here is generally a S**t show

[Blatman]

6 hours ago, Scott Young (Captain Colonial) - Club Secretary said:

Because the monitor is linked only to the paired pacemaker and necessary adjustments to it can be made remotely from the cardiac specialist if required, without the need to have the patient return to hospital.  This is particularly convenient and appropriate if the patient is far from home and needs intervention.

 

It has to be utterly secure not because of patient confidentiality but to stop anyone hacking into it and doing something that could harm or kill the patient.  This came about after someone in the States remotely hacked into ex-Vice President Dick Chenney’s pacemaker.  He was not harmed because he had no heart, but it necessitated change.

 

The pacemaker had a SIM card dongle attached for comms, and whilst in theory it *could* be hacked, the effort, skill  and knowledge required for the hack makes it impractical unless it is a high ranking individual who is worth targetting. The irony is that I was told it's not reprogrammable. But a hacker would need to reprogramme it to cause harm...

If it is re-programmablke then then the issue of patient confidentiality and linked to a specific pacemaker is bogus, as is the rationale behind scrapping it. I appreciate that some small amounts of precious metals may be recoverable, but the green cost of that entire lifecycle surely makes sustainability a reasonable question to ask? I don't believe we have reached a point where we can't do any better...

 

6 hours ago, Scott Young (Captain Colonial) - Club Secretary said:

The last thing is, of course, liability, lawsuits and damages, something which the USA started and the UK has adopted.  If they (or any charity) passed out used walkers and such that collapsed or failed, it would be them who would be liable, not the manufacturer.

 

Yes, totally get that of course but even so, testing walking frames in a cost effective way cannot be beyond the wit of man, surely?

 

I'm not given to looking at the world with despair, but these things are driving me close...

[Mark Stanton]

Had similar issues a few years back with regard to NHS "returns" - only solution was ebay, stuff was purchased for their aged gran who had been waiting for months - then a charitable donation was made 

[jeff oakley]

NHS waste is a pet of mine, my wife was a Finance director in one trust. The waste was biblical and aids of all types were just given out and never collected. There seemed to be no checks on who got what and no follow up to recover. 

Yes on certain item there is a data issue yet wheel chairs walking frames are easily sanitised, they are when kept in the hospital.

 

The big problem is in the scale of things managers see this as trivial, but it isn't. I would charge a deposit on all things and then at least if not returned we get part of the cost back. Some of the specialist beds that people get given to die at home cost thousands, but it is just a bed!.

 

As for the other bits you mentioned, in Bristol we used to have a huge incinerator plant that generated heat that was pumped into local homes but that was closed down by the council as it became infested with tree huggers. Up the road Gloucester has just opened an new one which burns anything that is not easily recycled and generates electric in a very clean manner. We need more of these then the ash used in landfill without the ludicrous tax that we currently have 

[MR.C]

So you get this second-hand wheel chair and the 

the wheel drops off.

Then claims direct contact you, sue the NHS for 10 k.

 

Public company's don't need to answer, that's just the way it is.

[MR.C]

Sorry 9.5k to claims direct,0.5 to the claimant.

[jeff oakley]

You know the wheel chairs and walking frames that do not leave the hospital are serviced and used again. What would happen is the same people who do this in hospital would do exactly the same for those returned.

 

Same as Oxygen bottles and trolleys, when people die as the bottles are rented, they get picked up and refilled and reused. It is not that hard where there is a will.

 

Alternatively we can keep on buying everything new and just throw it away because it is beyond the wit of someone in the NHS to sort this out.

[Man On The Clapham Omnibus]

I gather that returned NHS hearing aids are sent to the third world. What they do about the personal ear moulds for individual ear forms, and the custom programs tuned to the patient's hearing loss profile I wasn't told.

[pistonbroke]

Just been discharged from Hossy after a small OP .

The nurse wanted a band aid type plaster thing to dress the wound  , she had to open a shopping bag sized sealed pack of dressings costing ?X no of £'s . take out the items required and the rest would then have to be destroyed as the pack was no longer sealed .

I was then asked how I was getting home as I was unable to drive for 24 hours due to the anesthetic , I said my Wife would collect me but was unable to do so for an hour or so after she had finished work .

The nurse said she could phone for a taxi , when I said I didn't really want to pay for a taxi as I lived some distance away ( C12 miles ) she explained that the taxi would be paid for by the NHS  

I accepted the Taxi ! 

No idea how much it cost for the round trip but presume it was cheaper than using an Ambulance ( assuming one was available ) 

 

[jeff oakley]

Not having a go Bernie but that nurse must be wrong if she thinks that she has to throw away all those dressings. They come that way so that they are then decanted into the various trollies that are used. 

If she is not wrong then someone in procurement has got it badly wrong ordering something that way.

 

As for the Transport, yes Taxi is cheaper than an ambulance however once again why waste so much money? You had transport arranged and was willing to wait but when it was offered you took it, the nurse just have said nothing.

 

This is part of the problem of waste, again not having a go at you, but some see that the ambulance service is a "taxi" service for everything they want, should it not be the patients responsibility to get to hospital if not life threatening and home? I know some will have no one but I bet if they got charged up front many would suddenly fine ways of getting there and back. 

 

When I was a kid I broke an arm and often had deep cuts from playing with knives and chisels, that needed A&E, we went on the bus as we had no car, it was not expected as people back then remembered what it was like not to have an NHS so did not abuse it.

 

We can sort this out if everyone in the NHS starts to think and question everything. One example was adult nappies, when my wife was looking at one contract the costs were obscene, so she got several quotes from outside suppliers which were almost half the cost they were paying. This was brought to light and the cost from the original supplier tumbled, I would never have dealt with them again but procurement were happy with the company so they carried on. Again if that was me I would have insisted every single item they supplied was benchmarked as clearly they took advantage.

 

Anyway hope the op went okay Bernie

 

 

 

[Blatman]

Agree with everything 100% there Jeff. Excellent analysis as ever