4 Vaccines with UK agreements... from Prof Van Tam presentation 11 nov 2020.

[DonPeffers]

Protein Adjuvant--- Broken up pieces of COVID proteins stimulate antibody production--- Novavax GlaxoSmithKline/ Sanofi Pasteur.

 

Adenoviral Vector--- COVID spike protein inserted inside a harmless weakened common (chimpanzee) cold virus--- Oxford/AstraZeneca/Janssen.

 

mRNA--- Sends a coded message to the immune system to make COVID antibodies--- BioNTech/Pfizer.

 

Inactivated Whole Virus--- The whole virus is killed. This stimulates antibody production--- Valneva.

 

One or more might be chosen depending on safety data.

21.758 volunteers phase 3 tested the BioNTech/Pfizer covid vaccine and the other half got a placebo.

[Blatman]

I thought the mRNA option produced both anti- bodies as well as a better/stronger T-Cell response compared to other methods.

I'm hoping Jim_J will be along presently to give us some words that us laymen would understand...

[jim_l]

2 hours ago, Blatman said:

I thought the mRNA option produced both anti- bodies as well as a better/stronger T-Cell response compared to other methods

 

They have claimed a strong T-cell response for the BioNTech/Pfizer product , which to my limited knowledge might bode well for the duration of immunity.  I don't think they have even made it clear yet to what extent the product , a) prevents infection and/or  b) stops it manifesting itself in an illness, i.e. fights it.   Nor have they been specific about effectiveness in older people, whose immune responses can sometimes be poor. 

 

The cost and logistics implications of the Pfizer product will work against it if some of the cheaper (one tenth of the price or less)  approaches yield a vaccine that is even 50% effective.    I think the global reaction is more of a 'we CAN produce a vaccine' rather than a 'this is the answer' .

 

There are over 10 other candidates in phase 3 trials I think. 

 

 

 

 

[Blatman]

3 minutes ago, jim_l said:

The cost and logistics implications of the Pfizer product will work against it

Yes storage at -80degrees C was mentioned. The Russian vaccine is reported to be very effective (testing in UAE and Brazil, I think) and does not require such "careful" handling.

And yes the results are not yet peer reviewed which I guess is when we will get more detail on efficacy.

 

It's easy to dismiss stuff coming from Russia and China as results based on propaganda but who knows, maybe they have found something. Certainly the Russian offering is getting very good press, even from the decadent west!!!

[CraigHew]

12 minutes ago, jim_l said:

 

They have claimed a strong T-cell response for the BioNTech/Pfizer product , which to my limited knowledge might bode well for the duration of immunity. 

 

T cells (lymphocytes (white cells))form the major part of your immune response.  After being exposed to an antigen (covid or otherwise) the t cells can respond to that antigen several years and even decades later.

The difficulty arises when the antigen structure mutates slightly. Then the t cells dont recognise the challenge.

 

[Man On The Clapham Omnibus]

The -70º to -80ºC storage is being exaggerated in importance as a problem in some circles of the media, but it amounts to a box of dry ice which is both easily obtainable and very cheap. Some were suggesting liquid nitrogen which is a little bit more difficult but as that's another 100 centigrade degrees colder it won't be needed anyway.

 

Others have suggested that mRNA vaccines will change the human genome forever and turns us all into compliant robots, but that's another story. 

[DonPeffers]

 

3 hours ago, Man On The Clapham Omnibus said:

Others have suggested that mRNA vaccines will change the human genome forever and turns us all into compliant robots, but that's another story. 

 Report that Aus., Taiwan and S. Korea are NOT going down the mass vaccination route and will retain vaccines solely for localised outbreaks.

 

Post mRNA vaccination, harmony will break out within the forum 😃

[Alan France]

Have I started reading the Lancet by mistake?

[Captain Colonial]

1 hour ago, DonPeffers said:

Post mRNA vaccination, harmony will break out within the forum 😃

MFGA? 🤣

[Blatman]

9 hours ago, Captain Colonial said:

MFGA? 🤣

 

It's always been great...

 

10 hours ago, Alan France said:

Have I started reading the Lancet by mistake?

 

No. Go to the "Trust in Government" thread for Lancet and (now) BMJ goodness 

 

14 hours ago, Man On The Clapham Omnibus said:

The -70º to -80ºC storage is being exaggerated in importance as a problem in some circles of the media, but it amounts to a box of dry ice which is both easily obtainable and very cheap.

 

I think the issue is one of logistics. Polystyrene boxes with dry ice represent an inefficient way to transport 20ish million vaccine doses when the ratio of space needed for boxes to volume of actual cargo shipped is looked at.

[jim_l]

On 15/11/2020 at 00:14, Blatman said:

I think the issue is one of logistics. Polystyrene boxes with dry ice represent an inefficient way to transport 20ish million vaccine doses when the ratio of space needed for boxes to volume of actual cargo shipped is looked at.

 

There is a little more to it than dry ice I think.  The temp would need to be recorded, continuously, from factory to patient. If you start with a box with hundreds or thousands of doses in then you would have  a limited number of times you could open it and remove some.  The ones you remove would then need to be temp monitored. Defrosting would have to be carefully planned and monitored too, there will be a range of temperatures it can be administered at, and a 'post defrosting' time limit for administration. 

 

I can see some of the reasons  a '£5000 suitcase'  is being used to transport it.   Even then I wouldn't like to turn up in a province in Africa with a box of it,  the patients are spread thinly over hundreds of square miles, comms are poor, transport is poor, how do you persuade them to walk tens of miles for something they are not sure exists, . How do you you get them back for a second dose when they may have little concept of what a week is.   My guess is  logistics might keep the Pfizer one out of Africa if another one, even less effective,  comes along.

 

 

[Blatman]

Interesting discussion on this on Radio 4 last night. According to the expert the BiONTec/Pfizer vaccine is viable up to two hours at room temp, which is still a small window of opportunity. They were also discussing the "simple" issue of local storage as they suggestion is that freezers that hold at below 80 are not something that is already installed in many/most hospitals, let alone doctors surgery's so the first challenge is getting appropriate storage facilities to the relevant buildings. The other option discussed was "pop-up" vaccination centres on trucks, (similar to mobile blood donation trucks) where the freezer is built in and the facility arrives on-site ready to go.

[Blatman]

The vaccine developed by Moderna in the USA has just been announced as 94.5% effective and may be logistically easier as it requires storage at just minus 20 degrees C and can survive in a normal fridge for up to a month, compared to BioNTech/Pfizer which it seems can survive for just 5 days in the fridge. Although I don't imagine a 5 day shelf life as being a problem during the first few phases of any potential roll-out...

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54902908

[Blatman]

First paragraph of this article makes for interesting reading and if I understand it right (where's Jim_J?) it means that there may be quite a number of people who already have immunity from SARS-CoV-2/Covid-19. Suddenly I don't feel so bad about all the colds I caught...

[jim_l]

20 hours ago, Blatman said:

(where's Jim_J?)

 

I am not sure if it is me (Jim_L) you are asking Blatters, in which case you may be overestimating any understanding I have of virology/immunology.  In a little corner of Liverpool in the 80's we made the earliest of the genetically engineered  products, human insulin and human growth hormone, but at no point was it me in the lab modifying DNA.   I studied some undergrad science but when it became clear how hard it was I skipped neatly sideways into IT (way up there with the best decisions I ever made) 

 

Your conclusions from these articles seem reasonable, grabbing sentences I can grasp from it..

• "patients recovered from SARS …possess long-lasting memory T cells .. 17 years after the outbreak of SARS in 2003"
• "..these T cells displayed robust cross-reactivity to the N protein of SARS-CoV-2" 
• "We also detected SARS-CoV-2-specific T cells in individuals with no history of SARS, COVID-19 or contact with individuals who had SARS and/or COVID-19" 

With caution at this stage - Apart from all the colds you have had being potentially helpful here, I think this could mean that herd immunity could come sooner, in terms of how many people need to have had the virus or the vaccine to make it happen, wouldn't that be good? 

 

I'll bet there is someone on here that can 'peer review' our conclusions.