What are the MOT emissions for a Westfield/kit car?

[Euan Hoosearmy]

What year is your car registered? Which engine do you have, does it have a Cat? Are you on carbs or FI?

 

Q plate is easy as it's visible smoke. Pretty much everything apart from Q plate has some kind of emissions standard to get through. Even our capri (pinto on carb) failed it's MOT on emissions last year... 

 

The fun bit is working out which standard should apply to your car. Once you have that clarified, then you can argue, or give up and get a re-test at someone who knows what they're doing.....

 

 

[Sam Harland]

Hi Euan

 

It was registered in 1999 it has an C20XE on carbs modified at SBD motorsport. 
All the previous emission tests done say it’s for a non cat car and the parameters seem to be lower. Todays test they did it on a cat car emissions parameters. They tried to tell me it could be an Ecu issue or fueling or stale fuel. The car has never failed on emissions in its whole history and it’s only done 1000 miles since it last passed! 
I guess I just want to understand how it should be tested so I can go back to them with the correct info. 
cheers 

[jaykay42]

Hi!

I have a C20XE on (bike) carbs. 

My garage (classic specialist) does the same he did for my MGB GT:

dial the carbs down on power, optimised for emissions but running quite poorly, do the emissions test, dial the carbs in again afterwards. Sssshhh!

 

[Martyn Vann - Warwickshire AO]

Have you read the first post in this thread, and downloaded the emissions flowchart?

 

All the answers you need are there!

 

BTW all the information used is taken directly from the MOT inspection manual, which is what all MOT testers MUST follow!

[Flying Carrot Steve]

2 hours ago, Martyn Vann - Warwickshire AO said:

Have you read the first post in this thread, and downloaded the emissions flowchart?

 

All the answers you need are there!

 

BTW all the information used is taken directly from the MOT inspection manual, which is what all MOT testers MUST follow!

Thanks for pointing that out Martin, I hadn't seen that flowchart! 

 

My V5 does indeed have some emissions on the front. My MOT guy never uses it cos he's a good egg but I was wondering, if the engine had been changed since the car was IVAd would the emissions data have changed? My car used to be NA but the guy I bought it from turbocharged it. Just wondering what the impact may be on emissions testing if anyone knows? And whether it should be changed in the V5?

[Martyn Vann - Warwickshire AO]

On 20/04/2024 at 10:47, Flying Carrot Steve said:

Thanks for pointing that out Martin, I hadn't seen that flowchart! 

 

My V5 does indeed have some emissions on the front. My MOT guy never uses it cos he's a good egg but I was wondering, if the engine had been changed since the car was IVAd would the emissions data have changed? My car used to be NA but the guy I bought it from turbocharged it. Just wondering what the impact may be on emissions testing if anyone knows? And whether it should be changed in the V5?

The answer to your question is that the information is in the MOT inspection manual that ALL MOT testers should use in these cases!

 

Also, the information in the first post covers this situation, and here is the quote.

 

"You must test kit cars or amateur built vehicles to the limits in the vehicle’s registration document (V5c). If the V5c does not show any limits, you must test it to the limits of the engine fitted at the time of the SVA or IVA test."

 

So clearly all IVA'd kit cars are tested to the emissions standard of the engine fitted at the time of the IVA. Whether the values are printed in the special notes of the V5c or not. Therefore, the state of tune, n/a or turbocharged, does not matter!

 

Martyn

 

 

[Flying Carrot Steve]

1 hour ago, Martyn Vann - Warwickshire AO said:

The answer to your question is that the information is in the MOT inspection manual that ALL MOT testers should use in these cases!

 

Also, the information in the first post covers this situation, and here is the quote.

 

"You must test kit cars or amateur built vehicles to the limits in the vehicle’s registration document (V5c). If the V5c does not show any limits, you must test it to the limits of the engine fitted at the time of the SVA or IVA test."

 

So clearly all IVA'd kit cars are tested to the emissions standard of the engine fitted at the time of the IVA. Whether the values are printed in the special notes of the V5c or not. Therefore, the state of tune, n/a or turbocharged, does not matter!

 

Martyn

 

 

Brilliant, thank you Martyn, much appreciated 👌

[Sam Harland]

I did check out the flow chart and discussed this with the MOT centre but they are having none of it! They are telling me I need proof of the age of the engine and who fitted it in the form of a letter then contact Vosa and have it added to the V5.  I’ve tried arguing with them but they say they can’t do it as they are worried about getting audited and not following the rules! It’s ridiculous. 
I managed to contact the test centre that did it for the last 5 years and they didn’t need proof however they are in Wales so too far away for me. 
looks like I need to find somewhere else where they know what they are doing. 
Can anyone recommend somewhere in East Yorks or North Lincs? 
 

[Martyn Vann - Warwickshire AO]

The easy answer is to use the VT17 appeal form and let DVSA decide!

 

If the test station is mentioning VOSA, they are clearly out of date as it has been DVSA for many years! What they are stating is just made up, it does not say that in the manual, it's just what they think it says.

 

As it clearly states in the flow chart from the MOT inspection manual, engines first used before 1st Aug 1995 are tested as a non-cat test. That is CO 3.5% & HC 1200ppm, which is what I suspect the previous MOT tests have been. It is clear that an XE engine on carbs is an early 90s engine, its a no-brainer!

 

Unfortunately, this is another case of testers that cannot read/understand the rules of the job and want to make other people make decisions for them. Please note that the DVSA guidance is that where there is any doubt then the doubt should go to the presenter and/or the lower standards should be used.

 

Finally, DVSA also recommend that where there is a customer complaint there should be a discussion with the presenter using the MOT manual and/or the MOT guide to arrive at an answer. This should be documented and an action plan put in place to prevent it happening again and to demonstrate their quality control processes. Obviously this is not going to happen, so an appeal will at least get something done!

 

These testers make an easy job very hard, just to prevent loosing face and admitting they have made a mistake.

 

BTW I spend every working day trying to educate testers and test station managers to RTFM!

 

I'll get off the soapbox now!

 

Martyn

[Sam Harland]

Martyn

 

This is brilliant thank you so much for the information and your last comment really tickled me lol

im gonna go back to them and challenge them again and if they don’t back down I will try the appeal route. 
This place is a well known business and they work on a lot of classic and vintage cars and I thought they would know what they are doing … but clearly not! 
many thanks for your help as I just want to get on the road as the weather is improving! 
 

regards 

 

Sam 

 

 

[Martyn Vann - Warwickshire AO]

Just a final bit of advice.

 

The manual is online, just google it, find for yourself the information. Section 8.1.2.2. Kit cars is the relevant text and flowchart 2 has the 1995 date and the non cat emission values. Make sure you can find the information and then ask the tester, quality controller and/or manager to show you the information in the manual. If they can't, then show them, and ask them to apply the rules as written. Don't forget to get all the names written down for the appeal.

 

You may see that the paragraph before the 'kit car' one mentions documentary proof of a 'different engine' fitted, it only applies to mass produced cars not kit cars, as it hasn't had a different engine fitted!

 

Always ask to be shown the information in the manual, as many testers say what they think, not what is written down.

 

Good luck!

[Sam Harland]

Thanks so much for the info and help really appreciate it and it’s helped me a lot understand the process. 
I’ve contacted the test centre and battered them with all this info they did try to fob me off a little bit but 2 phone calls later and they have agreed to re test it as a non cat vehicle!! Woo hoo!!  
it’s booked in Wednesday so hopefully all will be well and back on the road!! 

[Sam Harland]

Thanks so much for the info and help really appreciate it and it’s helped me a lot understand the process. 
I’ve contacted the test centre and battered them with all this info they did try to fob me off a little bit but 2 phone calls later and they have agreed to re test it as a non cat vehicle!! Woo hoo!!  
it’s booked in Wednesday so hopefully all will be well and back on the road!! 
 

Quick update the car has now passed the MOT thanks to the tester finally reading the manual! 
Many thanks to all for help with this especially Martyn!  
Seen you on the road! 

[Martyn Vann - Warwickshire AO]

Having had a number of disasters occur over the last week, finally something positive! I'm glad to have helped @Sam Harland

[Richard (OldStager)]

On 18/05/2023 at 13:51, Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Chairman said:

Richard needed to take a complete break from both Social Media and "cars" for health reasons. As you can imagine, a social media site such as ourselves, featuring cars quite so strongly is at the top of that list!

 

We wished Richard well when he had to step away, as we still do, but based on his previous experience, he didn't feel like he would be able to come back anytime soon. 

 

Richard is certainly missed though and we all that chatted with him both on line and at events, hope he feels well enough to join in again soon. But these things take as long as they take.

But he's back... Thanks Dave.

 

Sorry about the on and off periods the last few years, getting the help now.

 

Just had to re-read why I was even mentioned here, and this years MOT ( at the same testing place) he never even attempted to test me, in previous years he has - despite knowing full well my car didn't need to be. I never did get to the bottom of why he did it, at this years MOT my car was running so badly due to Ethanol issues that once again I forgot to ask him.

I am convinced either the Gov or our local council are seeing just how polluting cars are, in order to create these Low Emission Zone's. There were 5 years of testing for me.