Suffolk Sports Cars

[stephenh]

"copyright" properly so called doesn't depend on any registration. It is a question of fact, either I have made a copy of your product or document or of a material part of it or I haven't. If I have, then you have the right in Law to stop me doing it.

Registered designs are slightly different, as the name implies they have to be registered.

Patents have to be registered, but we aren't talking about patents here, and I very much doubt we are talking about registered designs. If you manufacture a car and I buy or borrow an example of it and take moulds from it to manufacture my own version, then by definition I have made a copy of it. Equally, if I steal a copy of your engineering drawings from which you make the bodies for your car, and then use those drawings to manufacture my own counterfeit copies, I am making an unauthorised copy of your product. In either case, a clear breach of your copyright. The Chinese are very good at this!😄

However, if I look at your car and make my own version but incorporate my own subtle changes and improvements, so mine looks very similar to yours but isn't quite a cloned copy, then you are unlikely to be able to stop me on breach of copyright grounds.

At least, that is my understanding and recollection but I've been retired for a good few years now, so no responsibility or liability is accepted by me if anyone chooses to follow this non-advice! 

As an aside, I know of one case where a manufacturer of a machine produced a prototype of a new machine for pre-production testing, and a particular panel was made in a simple flat plane on the prototype. During testing, the panel was found to be too flexible, so when the machine went into production the panel was manufactured with ribbing on it to stiffen it. A short while later, in the Asian market for the product, counterfeit parts were discovered, manufactured in a far east country, which were identical in every respect except the were made to the pattern of the prototype panel, and not the production version!  So how on earth did the Chinese do such a perfect copy of a secret prototype panel which had never appeared in public? 

[Blatman]

2 hours ago, jeff oakley said:

Suffolk have now made more replicas than were originally made.

 

Maybe it was this that Jaguar objected to. A few quirky "homages" is one thing. A production run that outstrips the original manufacturer may be quite something else.

Maybe Jaguar Heritage was looking re-start production for bespoke clients and maybe they were concerned that this all-to-good replica dilutes their market?

No idea on any of that but the point here is that Jaguar felt compelled to engage their legal dept, as is their right. Suffolk cars felt defending their position was too risky which suggests that even if they were even slightly guilty of something then Jaguars case is solid. Emotional reactions aside, the reality would seem to be that Suffolk Cars have (rather belatedly) been taken to task about their activities and would seem not to have a defence that would stand up to scrutiny. 

[Blatman]

28 minutes ago, stephenh said:

During testing, the panel was found to be too flexible

 

Where? If this was on public roads or even on any of the closed tracks in use for this sort of thing, we often see "spy photographs" of XYZ in the motoring press, especially if the closed track is the Nurburgring. It's not that big a leap to think that these may have found their way to China.

[stephenh]

The machine, as I understand it, was tested on private property belonging to the manufacturer, not in a public place. And how would the counterfeiters know the correct dimensions from a photograph taken from a distance with a long telephoto lens?

Those who think that China is a big danger to the economic stability of the western world have every reason to be concerned in my opinion. 

[jeff oakley]

I understand what you are saying Blatters but what seems strange is that they and others have done copies for years, think of a model, E-type copied by challenger, C type, Nostalgia, Suffolk, Classic Jaguar Replicas. 

D type Proteus. XJ13 Race Car replicas, the list goes on. They have happily traded for many years and are accepted by the Jag Drivers clubs which has close ties with Brownhill Lane and yet suddenly this happens.

 

I think it may be they see a chance to keep values high by restricting replica production or change of ownership with TATA behind them now seeing things differently. Whatever the reason for it is a sad day and a worry for those manufacturers who are still producing them.

 

It reminds me of when BMW bought mini, their legal department was very active with any company using the name mini or any logos again having done so for many years with no harm to the brand.

 

I feel for those suppliers and individuals who have lost money as a result

[Alan France]

It could simply be down to a new head of legal making a point.

[Blatman]

6 hours ago, stephenh said:

The machine, as I understand it, was tested on private property belonging to the manufacturer, not in a public place. And how would the counterfeiters know the correct dimensions from a photograph taken from a distance with a long telephoto lens?

Those who think that China is a big danger to the economic stability of the western world have every reason to be concerned in my opinion. 

 

I agree with everything you say. I'd bet that even without accurate-to-the-millimeter dimensions the Chinese have enough resources for a bunch of trial and error attempts to get it close enough.

 

Jeff, yes I agree it does seem strange to us. I'm betting the logic is much clearer to JLR and I doubt we'll ever be able to second guess them with any accuracy.

That said, I'll have another WAG now that I'm here... Maybe JLR are sending a signal to all the other replica producers.

[Mark Stanton]

Pin taken from grenade and throw:😇

 

 Replicas are fine and with some great kits available: Perhaps there is also a problem with mis-representation ? there are some excellent amateur garage engineers out there, who on completing their kit, then badge the car, thus mis-representing it's origin e.g Jaguar badges in lieu of the kit manufacturer, lotus badges on a pre-lit, Lancia Stratos, there are many - to the untrained eye, there is no difference - is this fraud / misrepresentation or simply flattery to the original, now costing thousands more ? thus potentially de-valuing "an original classic" ?

 

The usual comment back is "I put that badge/logo etc on as an homage to the spirit of the original" yeh, we believe you 🙄 there is very rarely much to identify it as a "Joe Bloggs" replica kit, why ? These folks should be proud of their engineering and build skills - Put the kit manufacturer badge on your car and let folks say "Did you build that ?" rather than say look at him "more money than sense" 😉

 

Can the JLR's of this world go after Mr XXX in his garage to stop this, hardly. However they can put a stop to the source, the kit manufacturer. 😞

 

I'll get me coat .....😇

 

[jeff oakley]

In the "olden days" when kits were first made they were almost always unique designs but then people did start to replicate a lot of older designs, Westfield 11 for example and it was not confined to kits. There are many Bentley 3 1/2 ltrs which are built on much later chassis, Austin 7 two seaters sports as an example of that and now Eagle E types being made into lightweight coupes.

 

I can appreciate them all but here is a thought, replica manufacturers make them as people want them, and if you look at the vast majority of manufacturers out there they are replicas which sell. Cobras, Lola, VW, 7 types, Ferrari, GT40's but where are the unique designs now?

 

When designs that are good arrive and are not copies, like the GTM Libra they struggle to compete as they are expensive and then you are into what else could you buy? The last GTM demonstrator that Westfield built cost over £35k and that put it firmly in Boxster territory which arguably would be a better car it was the unique design that set it apart.

 

That is why manufacturers build replicas as even though the costs can be much higher for the customer they are competing against cars sometime so rare they are worth millions for originals. There are exceptions, Ultima for one but our hobby is dominated by replicas of one design or another hence the concern that what JLR have allegedly done may spur others on   

[stephenh]

Agree with what Mark said about badges. That is why when I built my XI I put no badges on it whatsoever, except for one tiny Westfield self-adhesive gel type badge which went in the middle of the steering wheel boss. Certainly didn't want any Lotus badges on it, because it wasn't a Lotus.

As regards the cost of kits, I am concerned about the implications for the top end replica manufacturers who do put a considerable amount of time and effort, and significant cost, into developing their cars. They end up as relatively expensive cars by most people's standards. Think of the AKSS at about £90k or the various Gardner Douglas kits, for example. It would be a great shame if those were no longer around.