M44 Posted May 21, 2020 Share Posted May 21, 2020 (edited) Quick hello. I am here for some advice from you knowledgeable lot. I am in the process of swapping a BMW M44 engine into a 1975 1602. The swap is done, but now I want to add some ITB's. I have bought a set of GSXR K1 K2 items and will be attempting to fit these, with my very limited knowledge !!! Retaining the OEM ecu, if possible. I was trawling through the Google in the wee hours looking for flow rates, etc and you guys popped up. I guess, it's a common thing for you guys to be fitting bike ITB's ? I am guessing more on the Ford and XE engines ?? Is there anyone running a BMW M44 engine in their cars by any chance ? Anyway, that's me. I don't own a Westy, but just need to pick your brains. Hope that's OK ? Wayne Edited May 21, 2020 by M44 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Kinder (Bagpuss) - Joint Peak District AO Posted May 21, 2020 Share Posted May 21, 2020 Hi Wayne, I'm not aware of any Westfield with a M44 engine in sorry. I doubt you'd be able to use the original ECU as you'll need to alter the fuelling given the change to throttle bodies. You may also have other signals into the ECU from the original car (dashboard, Immobiliser, Air con, air bags etc), that may prevent correct operation in the 1602. Marlin kit cars use the 6 cylinder BMW engines- may be worth talking to them for advice for your 4 pot. - http://www.marlinsportscars.co.uk/sportster/self-build/donor-information/ Good luck with your project and do update your post with the answer when you find it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dommo Posted May 21, 2020 Share Posted May 21, 2020 These guys used to build BMW engine'd 7s (stay with me!)... http://www.thelathropes.com/index.html They also do or did a supercharger kit and recommended a "K-Data" ECU. I've never heard of that, but it might be worth a chat with them to see if that ECU will suit your needs. The standard ECU runs a MAF from memory and there's probably some witchcraft that could make it work, but I can't see it being good witchcraft! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M44 Posted May 21, 2020 Author Share Posted May 21, 2020 Cheers guys. The oem ecu has already been fettled to get it to work in the 1602. So, the immobiliser, etc has already gone. I am aiming towards using an airbox (over velocity stacks) and retaining the MAF at the input for the time being, that's the easy part. I am more concerned about fuelling, vacuum and TPS, that sort of stuff and integrating it into the car. I guess it is immaterial which car we are talking about, it's basically Motorcycle ITB's being made to work in a car. But, then I guess almost all of you guys, would implement a standalone ecu anyway for that application anyway !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dommo Posted May 21, 2020 Share Posted May 21, 2020 The standard ECU presents a lot of problems to overcome to make it work, where as an aftermarket ECU allows you to do what's best for the engine and installation rather than keeping the standard ECU happy. I think it will be worth the cost to get an aftermarket ECU, even if it's a "traditional" one not a plug & play one. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingster Posted May 21, 2020 Share Posted May 21, 2020 2 hours ago, M44 said: it's basically Motorcycle ITB's being made to work in a car. But, then I guess almost all of you guys, would implement a standalone ecu anyway for that application anyway Yes that’s the nub of it. Plenty of us use bike ITBs (I run GSXR 1000 K1/2’s on mine) - but I’d be fairly certain that not one single person would use an OEM ECU with them. The only time we’re likely to use the OEM ECU is with OEM injection. Good luck with the project 👍 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Kinder (Bagpuss) - Joint Peak District AO Posted May 21, 2020 Share Posted May 21, 2020 2 hours ago, M44 said: Cheers guys. The oem ecu has already been fettled to get it to work in the 1602. So, the immobiliser, etc has already gone. I am aiming towards using an airbox (over velocity stacks) and retaining the MAF at the input for the time being, that's the easy part. I am more concerned about fuelling, vacuum and TPS, that sort of stuff and integrating it into the car. I guess it is immaterial which car we are talking about, it's basically Motorcycle ITB's being made to work in a car. But, then I guess almost all of you guys, would implement a standalone ecu anyway for that application anyway !! Is it possible to adapt setting is the OEM ECU or is the only way to interfere with signals from the MAF to fool it into running okay? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Chairman Posted May 21, 2020 Share Posted May 21, 2020 There are a big number of issues to overcome with an OEM ecu to make it work, it is sort of possible with some, others are a total non starter, I'm sorry, I've no idea where your's falls! What will need to be "possible"; fuel and ignition maps altered to suit the new ITB Some method of measuring the incoming fuel air mix, traditionaly on a conversion like this, with aftermarket ecu, it would either be a Throttle Position Sensor, (TPS) or a MAP (air pressure sensor), or a combination of both. In theory, your MAF sensor would measure this, however, again, without knowing how yours works, it may not be happy with the more uneven pulsed inputs from bike ITB, plus you will need to make some kind of airbox to connect themall together. Idle control, typically on an aftermarket ecu, with ITB, you'd use some kind of ignition advance/retard control to maintain the engines idle speed. It's more likely your OEM ecu will be controlling a stepper motor idle valve, so you will need to: find some way of plumbing it in, via a mini balancing manifold and vacuum lines to the ITB, not too bad to do, and a few do it this way when converting, anyway be able to modify the idle control maps within the ecu to match the new setup. Be able to adjust start up maps to suit the new ITB as the airflow will be radically different. Adjust warm up maps for the same reason. And probably something else, I've forgotten! You may well find that even if the ecu is able to be adapted to suit, the costs are significantly higher due to tools required and the degree of specialisation involved, so I'd cost out both options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve (sdh2903) Posted May 21, 2020 Share Posted May 21, 2020 I built a gkd legend a few years ago with this engine, well it started out that way but that's a different story, Peter lathrope from gkd (as in dommos link) was very knowledgeable on these engines and I'm pretty sure he got the supercharged engine working OK on the oem ecu. If running a single intake to an airbag through the maf then I can see it running, but it certainly won't be optimised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Chairman Posted May 21, 2020 Share Posted May 21, 2020 2 minutes ago, Steve (sdh2903) said: I'm pretty sure he got the supercharged engine working OK on the oem ecu I've seen this on a few cars, where there's enough range in the system to cover modest increases in air/fuel. on a forced induction car. And of course, on some, you can, with the right gear adjust the oem ecu to suit - I know on some of the later generation MX5's for instance, BLiNK Motorsport are able to quite comprehensively dyno tune the ecu's maps to suit their supercharger packages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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