dhutch Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 11 hours ago, Captain Colonial said: Rads and pipes both painted, not looking for exact temps, just wanted to see which end got hot first but good points, thank you. If it does the job, it works! I fine the ir gun I have is poor on curved surfaces, it likes to be fairly square on to a fairly flat surface. To the corner of a radiator when the flow comes in is good but a 15mm copper pipe is bad. It won't be calibrated to the emissivity of the surface, but for comparison rather than absolutes is should still be fine. I have heard of people placing a square of tape on a surface to read that, but I've not found it to help a lot. 1 hour ago, Man On The Clapham Omnibus said: I have Danfoss TRVs and they certainly seem better made than the cheaper unbranded ones. However it is prudent to open them wide in summer in my experience or they tend to stick closed over the warm weather. It is easier to ease off an open valve than a closed one. We're in a hard water area so YMMV Yes, they can seem to stick especially if held down. I don't know what the best thing to do is, certainly turning all the TRVs off all summer is likely the worst thing to do, on their normal setting I would expect the bulk to spend most of their time atleast part-open even in reasonably warm weather, and if they move a bit that's likely best. I think my plan is to turn any rooms we have 'off' to a mid setting and then leave them all there. Sitting on the TRV cartridge but mainly open. And I think turn the heating on one for 20mins once in the middle of the summer and give them all a wiggle to ensure them and the fluid has moved once Who knows. I'm hoping they will do 10-15 years but will report back in a decade on that! Daniel 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Colonial Posted March 13, 2020 Author Share Posted March 13, 2020 4 minutes ago, dhutch said: If it does the job, it works! I fine the ir gun I have is poor on curved surfaces, it likes to be fairly square on to a fairly flat surface. To the corner of a radiator when the flow comes in is good but a 15mm copper pipe is bad. It won't be calibrated to the emissivity of the surface, but for comparison rather than absolutes is should still be fine. I have heard of people placing a square of tape on a surface to read that, but I've not found it to help a lot. It's certainly helped me see not only which ends are getting hot first (not the ones I thought, either!) but also which ones are getter hotter than others. It's all good info for when I tackle the job but especially when I balance the system afterwards. Bloomin' Victorian houses. I wish I could understand why two rads with wide open valves on the same floor and on opposite sides of the same wall get hot at different times. Then again, I've got better things to worry about and I'll just grab a beer instead. 😄 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhutch Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 1 hour ago, Captain Colonial said: It's certainly helped me see not only which ends are getting hot first (not the ones I thought, either!) but also which ones are getter hotter than others. It's all good info for when I tackle the job but especially when I balance the system afterwards. Bloomin' Victorian houses. I wish I could understand why two rads with wide open valves on the same floor and on opposite sides of the same wall get hot at different times. Then again, I've got better things to worry about and I'll just grab a beer instead. 😄 Sounds good to me, I have done a bit of trying to balance up our rads, for which I mainly focused on trying to get the turn temps for each rad similar once the initial heat up had vaguely stabilised, and actually found counting how long I could hold my hand on it was as good as anything else! We're early Edwardian (so same, but with larger windows) and acquired the house with a five-zone 'single pipe' system and absolutely shot valves on most of the radiators, so ended up replumbing the bulk of it by reconfiguring the three first floor loops into a two pipe system and dropping new pipes down to all the ground floor to save lifting the wooden tiles in the main living rooms. Replaced about half of the rads and 3/4 valves, retaining that which had already been done recently enough to be worth saving, plus one 1960s 'period' panel rad on the landing. We were mid way through a whole-house rewire so the added disruption was minimal and manageable. Plus side is I now know where all the pipes are, and the valves work well, downside is it cost as much as a westfield! Daniel 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Colonial Posted March 13, 2020 Author Share Posted March 13, 2020 Wow... sounds a mare of a project but with great results. No way I can do that on mine without selling my grandson to raise the cash. Actually, I'd probably have to pay someone to take him away... I'll just have change the valves and add TRVs and do what I can without ripping everything up. I will eventually change the old single panel rads for more modern ones, but the rub will be that new ones will be different sizes to the old and therefore a major job to swap. The old single panels ones are still in good shape and get plenty hot, but newer ones would be better I know. One thing at a time, I guess. Then I've got to change the huge single pane skylight for a Velux window. Stupid thing is like a shaft of cold air coming straight down the staircase in winter and in summer, I can't open it to vent out the heat that builds up on the well-insultated top floor all day and makes it like sleeping in a sauna... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhutch Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 The advantage with new rads is that they have fins on the back, so have increased surface area, often in a smaller/shorter package. Larger rads being cooler return temperature, so the condensing boiler can do its thing, something which was but a pipe-dream with the one pipe system where you had to send it out at 80 deg and got it back within a couple of degrees of that! If its and inch or so different you can get telescopic valve couplers, but often you want to go a foot or two shorter and get some wall back which you really want to do under the floor. If the room is carpeted, it's potentially not a huge job to pull back one edge, lift a floorboard and re-space the pipes especially if the carpets being changed at the time, but it still a lot more work than not doing it so it depend on the perceived gain! We bought the house at a reasonable price knowing very little had been done for 38 years, last wiring presumed to be done in 1965 when it was split in half to give the 4 bed semi we have, with the intention of doing a reasonable amount of work and then doing a 40 year stink in it ourselves, but it has still being a fair old project and being I think more than even I anticipated. We're 30 and 32, without children as yet, but with the hope of it being a family home. 18 months into owning it and about 12 months into the work, the rewiring and plumbing is done and as of november we have the two main living rooms both have ceilings and are all back together decorated, furniture but not curtains and light fittings. Kitchen and bathroom are the only rooms basically untouched, bed rooms will be done room at a time, hall and landing will re-papered sometime over the next year for us to decorate. Daniel 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Man On The Clapham Omnibus Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 Daniel, you may have a point about not opening them fully. In our en suite there's an automatic (timed, thermostatic) valve and the instructions tell you to set it for the 'summer' setting to save the battery from opening and closing fruitlessly in summer when the system is off. What it does do, though, is operate the valve fully and briefly at pre-set intervals of some weeks (if I recall) so that the sticking problem is overcome. You idea of setting them to, say 24ºC would have them opening for nights and partly closing for warm days and fully closing for hot days but neither state for extended periods and certainly with movement often enough to ensure maintenance of free movement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole Posted March 14, 2020 Share Posted March 14, 2020 I used danfoss trv and lock valves not cheap but excellent quality and can go either end. Balancing as said done by lock valves. I also fitted an intelligent pump that maintains constant flow by varying speed.. Different rads come on and heat up at different speeds due to pipe run pressure drop.. which is what you are trying to balance with the valves.. furthest rad from boiler will have valve fully open etc.. You will need to leave an open circuit so boiler not pumping against all closed valves I don't know the intelligent hive system in detail..but does each individual valve also control the boiler/ pump? If the main room stat if at temperature will it stop the pump..if yes then what ever individual trv says there will not be heat Or do you set the room stat very high and run on trv but then pump won't stop? Best solution is to have as many circuits ((zones) as possible but only really applies to new build or full system refit.. I would also consider new rads where necessary or possibly..more efficient so running boiler less.. Sounds a good project! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Colonial Posted March 14, 2020 Author Share Posted March 14, 2020 1 hour ago, Mole said: I don't know the intelligent hive system in detail..but does each individual valve also control the boiler/ pump? Yes. Each Hive TRV is connected wirelessly to the Hive hub. If the temperature in only one room drops below the required level of that room, it fires the boiler but there is a time lag of between 5-15 minutes before doing it in case it’s a draft, etc. so that it doesn’t overreact to sudden changes. The Hive HRVs are temperature adjustable in 0.5 degree increments. 1 hour ago, Mole said: If the main room stat if at temperature will it stop the pump..if yes then what ever individual trv says there will not be heat Or do you set the room stat very high and run on trv but then pump won't stop? Quick answer... I’m not sure yet. The Hive main thermostat is free standing in this case and you can carry it around, but it’s most likely to live in the sitting room in my case. If I put a Hive HRV in the sitting room as well, I’m not sure which one will be the boss. A little trial and error and research still required. Main Hive stat does shut the boiler and pump off now but I haven’t added any Hive HRVs yet. 1 hour ago, Mole said: I would also consider new rads where necessary or possibly..more efficient so running boiler less.. I’m beginning to agree. I think five new rads will be in order and considering the current virus fun and games, I’m not going on holiday abroad soon so it’s a bit more affordable to do so. Thanks again all for your input, good stuff. Apologies for not having all the answers yet, I’m still learning... which is why I started the thread! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim RS Posted March 14, 2020 Share Posted March 14, 2020 I got a good deal for my radiators/trvs/lock shields from MrCentralHeating, They are South Coast based but was all delivered by courier. They may be worth a try as I had 8 rads(1 over 2m long) and they included fittings but as always check around they may not be the best at the moment. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole Posted March 14, 2020 Share Posted March 14, 2020 The hive valves and their intelligence seems good.. You just need to think about the pump if going to fine detail.. one rad open or ten rads makes a big difference on flow and pressure drop for the pump..but I guess there is plenty of tolerance in the whole system.. Good luck with it all.. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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