Question for SS MSA contact

[moomin]

Hi.

Whilst thumbing through a friends 2004 Blue Book the other day, I read the following section with interest...

Section L.10.8:

10.8 Transmission

10.8.1 Roadgoing production, roadgoing specialist production, modified Production cars

Reverse gear must remain operable at all times

10.8.2 Hill climb super sports, sports libre and racing cars

Reverse gear is not required

As a fully road legal BEC (you don't have to have reverse for SVA or MOT) I wouldn't be able to enter a roadgoing class?  And would end up in a sports libre "slicks & wings" class?

This issue has been raised on the Yahoo BEC list recently, but I'd like/need some clarification with respect to the WSCC SS - i.e. how strictly is this regulation applied?

If it's a definite requirement (and I suspect it is) then I think that is the final nail in the coffin of me not being able to partake in SS this year  

Thanks in advance.

moomin

[Blatman]

For Speed Series points, it'll make b******* all difference. You'll score points in the class for which you have entered.

On the day though, the organising club may well want you to run in the sports libre or racing car class, This doesn't matter IMO unless you are looking to collect "on the day" trophies offered by the organising club. In that case, it may be an issue for you.

[moomin]

hmmm yes I see what you mean, as long as the SS doesn't discriminate against BECs sans reverse?

I'm not really in it for points or trophies, just for some fun - I don't know whether ending up in a class full of slickers rather than a class full of BECers would detract from that?

moomin

[adhawkins]

I guess at the end of the day who you compare your own times with is up to you...

Andy

[Rob Navin]

Moomin

On the day at all but the WSCC events you will probably be in the slick shot class any way  but don't let that put you off as all the bike cars will.  This has nothing to do with the reverse gear more to do with list 1b tyers and aero screens.

I will be in that class with a x-flow next year so you won't be last

Bring it out to play.  As Blatters says it wont make any difference in the end.

[Mark Stanton]

For WSCC SS - road going Classes are for registered fully Road going legal cars      As Blats and Rob say    

However you will always have a variation of class to suit specific on the day event classes -      Some organisers do not have specific BEC classes         as they seem to regurge old regs year after year without updating them    

So no worries  

P.S. You'll get naff all sense out of the MSA about anything            

So in short as long as its road legal for WSCC SS then fine - but expect to end up in some weird class for on the day events   But you're gonna have fun around some of the paddocks without reverse need a push

Reverse gear is mandatory for circuit racing  

[moomin]

OK I geddit now - thanks for the explanations.

Of course the advantage is that if I'm sports libre then I don't have to meet the noise limits of a roadgoing car  

Unfortunately this means I'm still in the hunt for the cash to be able to partake :sigh:

But you're gonna have fun around some of the paddocks without reverse - need a push

oh very generous of you to offer, yes please  

moomin

[Blatman]

Of course the advantage is that if I'm sports libre then I don't have to meet the noise limits of a roadgoing car  

You don't have to anyway. I don't have an '04 Blue Book to hand, but for '03 the noise limit was either 105 or 107dbA, even for road going classes........

[RICHARD+PHILIP]

Why havn't you got a reverse gear?

That's the question the clark of the course/ the scrutineer and the MSA officaial are going to start asking you when they have to stop the meeting to drag you out of a situation that a person with a reverse gear would have been able to get out of.

I can imagine that you will get away without one but your sure gonna p*** people off when you spin. and havn't got it. I doudt the sports libre excuse would go down well either.

[Blatman]

Do bike engined OMS's and the like have reverse then? I didn't think they did..........  

[RICHARD+PHILIP]

My point being that marshalls "expect" to stop an event if a single seater has an off.

Isn't this a bit of a slippery slope if one person is allowed to run with out a reverse gear even at the back of the field surely the leading few (who don't use there cars on the road) will ditch the reverse box (how much does it weigh?) then where would we be?

People in different classes running at different time in different weather conditions etc.

This isn't a dig at moomin as I am sure he has some reason for not putting a reverse in and I hope enjoys the series next year.

[moomin]

I removed the reverse gearbox from my car as the mechanical reverse boxes are notoriously unreliable (indeed later inspection showed mine had an input shaft bearing shell floating around inside it after 1000 gentle running in miles! ), add extra weight, consume a little power, add driveline shunt...

I'd personally rather have to leap out and push it every now and again (speaking from a road car perspective) than have to fret about the unreliability factor.

I estimate a weight saving of around 10kgs from the conversion, by weighing the outgoing and ingoing parts.

Many of the BECers are doing the same thing, some of them fit an electric reverse in it's place, but I chose to try the car without and see if it were a problem - it's not really.

If it going to cause a problem SS-wise, then a reg should be in place to clarify

moomin

[stevewi]

Moomin you wont be alone, there is going to be a few of us.

I got rid of my reverse, due to the fact that a faulty unit rattled my prop off, while on track.

Reasons for not putting it back on :-

1. Weighs 10Kg more than without as moomin mentioned

2. Westfield reckon you should check it before every track day etc. This is too time consuming because of where it  is located(would spend more time checking than driving).

3. With no reverse, no horrible clonking every gear change.

4. Car runs much smoother and a fair bit quicker. Let Steve Miller have drive my Busa after I removed reverse(He had exactly the same mods at the time) and afterwards he ditched his even without anything being wrong with his, it was that noticeable.

5. Saftey, After my incident where I was lucky I felt something wrong and slowed considerably before my prop came off. I hate to think what damage that prop would have caused at high speed.

6. With addition of Supercharger and NOS there is no way that reverse box would survive.

7. Means don't have to have a horrible looking second gear stick.

8. With the reliabilty of these units (not just wetsfield ones) you would probably stand just as much chance coming off anyway because the unit has givin up  thus meaning no reverse or foward than coming off with no reverse installed and facing a direction where you could not use forward gears to get back on track.

9. not so much with the busa but I know other bec's vibrate a lot due to the angle of the prop with the reverse box.

And if the officials expect a little hasssle with Single seaters, whats the difference with moomin and me, just because we have an extra/empty seat beside us.  

Steve

[scott beeland]

- I don't know whether ending up in a class full of slickers rather than a class full of BECers would detract from that?

moomin

Moom. I tended to end up running on the day with the slicks and wings boys (and the Algar Busa). Didn't take any of the fun away at all. Some meetings saw me less than 2/100ths away from slick times....And you've always got yourself to beat from run to run.

Pre race night and Paddock atmosphere is what makes it fun

[RICHARD+PHILIP]

 

Scott and what class were you running with us in?

Modified Kit replica and space frame cars (Us lot on slicks!

WE still need to have a reverse gear!!!!!!!!

It's only the sports libre class and racing cars that don't need one!

SO Moomin would'nt be running in our class either!