Good brakes

[Storvite]

Is it possible to have good powerful brakes that come close to a modern day car? If so how do I get some? I have 3 Westfield’s, none of them have fantastic brakes🤦🏻‍♂️

[SXRORY]

Are you sure they are actually not actually powerful and its not just the pressure required because of no servo.

I had two highly modified cars with big brake kits on before my westfield.  The westfield could outbrake them both.

but the effort required to do so is definitely more. 

 

 

 

[Storvite]

5 hours ago, SXRORY said:

Are you sure they are actually not actually powerful and its not just the pressure required because of no servo.

I had two highly modified cars with big brake kits on before my westfield.  The westfield could outbrake them both.

but the effort required to do so is definitely more. 

 

 

 

Yes it’s just the amount of effort required, this is what I’d like to reduce 

[AdamR]

You need one of more of the following. This is the order I would do them in, too:

 

- Higher coefficient brake pads

- Smaller master cylinder(s)

- Servo

 

Only the first one will maintain your brake pedal feel, and modulation is easier when the brakes are less spongy. Therefore, having to push a bit harder is better for performance driving.

[CraigHew]

My car came from the factory with the "race brake kit" upgrade.

It has R114 calipers, DS2500 pads, braided hoses, grooved and vented 283mm discs.

 

Although the discs weigh as much as a boat anchor each, and the pads used to rattle badly until I used a clip, the stopping power is superb.

 

I don't need to stamp on them too much either considering there's no servo assistance involved.

 

[Storvite]

2 hours ago, AdamR said:

You need one of more of the following. This is the order I would do them in, too:

 

- Higher coefficient brake pads

- Smaller master cylinder(s)

- Servo

 

Only the first one will maintain your brake pedal feel, and modulation is easier when the brakes are less spongy. Therefore, having to push a bit harder is better for performance driving.

I have an adjustable bias master cylinder fitted, perhaps I need to learn them a bit more

[AdamR]

Yep, with twin masters your pedal force is doubled. Just need some time to learn the car. Worth it, you will benefit in the long run.

[Maurici- CleaR Motorsport]

Obvious, but I will remark it here.

 

Remember that you will never get more stopping power than locking the wheels. And to be honest, in a westfield you can lock even the stickiest of the slicks with 100% road brakes.

 

So, as Adam says, in a car like this the questions are:

 

How long will they last. (usually forever with decent pads and fluid... even with tiny no vented disks)

 

And how will they feel. And as Adam says... better to have a rock solid pedal with very tiny movement, and locking by applying insane amount of force on them, than displacement with very little force required.

 

Once you get used to it, is easier to modulate a range from 0 to 40kg of force requiered from your leg, than a 0 from 15 kg. (providing that you are fit for this leg workout... but even I can do it with lifetime ankle injures ).

 

 

[NickBW]

just press the stop pedal harder? 😂

[Rob Hunter - Club Secretary]

As a new owner, I had very similar thoughts on the standard M16 non vented brakes on my Westfield. It seemed to be lacking stopping power Vs my track prepped BMW Mini (or even my barge of a daily).

However, I changed my mind last weekend after I had to properly stand on the anchors from speed (legal if course!) due to some old dear not spotting my bright yellow car! 

The absence of a servo does mean they behave very differently from everyones anesthetised daily car.

Whether they'll fade on track I'm yet to find out, but press them hard enough and you can be hanging from the harnesses... 😀

[Onliest Smeg David]

1 hour ago, RobH72 said:

 standard M16 non vented brakes on my Westfield.

 

As I have on't my Lardy One.

Never had any issues stopping quicker than any 'normal' car, or when on track for very long sessions. Use Mintex 1144 pads btw.

I'm certainly no track king, but still found I'd be breaking much later into bends than some with much higher spec'ed brake systems.

 

If you take into account even a heavy Westfield like mine is near half the weight of a light 'normal' 'hot' car, there's not the need for loads of extra brakage!

[Storvite]

11 hours ago, NickBW said:

just press the stop pedal harder? 😂

Ha ha thanks nick 🤦🏻‍♂️😜

[Storvite]

Pressing the brake pedal hard is so difficult to get used to, I have a m5 as a road car which has ceramic brakes, I can blow on the pedal and they put you through the screen so I have bothered ends of the scale to deal with🤦🏻‍♂️

[Andrzej]

Yes, it seems to be hard to develop this hard pressing. But it is not. Give it a chance.  Before Westfield I have never drive a car without the brake servo. But one visit to track, and  it was enough to know, that this brake system design (without servo) it the "proper" one.  The main clue is that rather than brake pedal  _travel_  like in regular cars, we apply brakes by _force_ . The pedal is hardly moving. I have in Westfield  similiar brake system (brake bias bar and two master cylinders) and still possible to block the wheel (slick, hot tyre)  on dry. 

 

If You insist , maybe a longer (from axle up) brake pedal would make a difference ?

And, I decided to change pedal pads (including brake pedal)  to wider ones than original westfield , and with some more friction material (something like this : https://www.rallyshop.pl/index.php?p149716,nakladki-omp-oa-1000) ,. beacuse original ones was to slippy for me (especially when wet from the engine coolant... but it is another story  ) .

 

Oh, and it is important to mount a heel support under brake pedal - much less effort ane more confidence when braking.

[Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Chairman]

Annoyingly, and BMW are terrible for it, so many modern cars that are intended for the performance saloon/hatch/et al market segments have started to exhibit the same thing over the last few years.

 

Stupid, stupid brakes, that are designed in such away that even relatively gentle pressure generates a disproportionately fierce initial bite; this in turn gives the impression of a car with much more “brakes” than it necessarily has, not that I’m saying the brakes aren’t necessarily good, just that on the whole, they’re not really that much better on than on their non-over servo’d, non-artificially manipulated competitors models.

 

Its all just smoke and mirrors to make the driver think the brakes are better than they actually are.

 

(PS, I’m talking about the regular braking setups, by the way, not physically upgraded versions, Carbon ceramic options, etc)

 

Ive had the same thing, climb from my old five series with its razor sharp brakes into a Westfield with AP Race brakes and good pads, and initially, it feels softer and less bite, till you switch from having to delicately brush the pedal, like the beemer, to applying properly modulated force, at which point the tables turn completely!