Roll cage regulations

[Smudge62]

Do I need a full cage for my Sport 250 ?

I wish to compete in the modified sprint and hill climb class to give me a better choice of tyres and have just submitted my car that was purchased with a MSA spec rear cage to a nationl A licensed scrutineer to get a vehicle pass port (log book). His specialty is single seater racing cars but he should know the rules for everything else. After giving him a day to check the regs this is what he has came back to me with.  

Hi David 

What is the actual cc of your engine?

Having done some digging I'm fairly certain that your car does need a single roll hoop, blue book S10, and see diagram 1 & 2, and that yours does not comply.  K1.3.1 states that vertical legs need to be as straight as possible and made from a single piece without joints.  Yours has bends and joints. 

K1.6.2 also states that the minimum diameter is 48.3 mm yours is 44.8 mm.  

If the engine actual cc is over 2,000 cc you will need a full cage with two roll hoops. 

Not sure how the vehicle build list states that it is a MSA half cage, when it doesn't comply with the above. 

 

ADVICE REQUIRED, as I didn't want to fit a full cage but if he is correct then that is what I will have to do.

Thanks David

[Kit Car Electronics]

You might need an official statement from Westfield, but your MSA rear cage should have a sticker and official homologation certification number to prove the design is acceptable despite the slimmer tubes and bends. Presumably the joint mentioned is the bolted flange mount as the hoop itself should be a single tube.

Your engine capacity should be stated on the V5 as (1999cc I think).

[stephenh]

Agreed that you should speak to Westfields. I suggest Mark Walker is the man to speak to.

Why did the scrutineer think your engine was over 2,000cc.?

[Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Chairman]

59 minutes ago, stephenh said:

Why did the scrutineer think your engine was over 2,000cc.?

Is the old forced induction equivalency factor not still applied to work out the "effective" engine size?

In the (very) old days, I'm sure it used to be around 1.4? So the turbo 2 (1.999?) litre would be considered equivalent to a NA 2.799 litre engine, (1.4x1.999), and treated accordingly in the rules.

[Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Chairman]

Oh and agreed on the MSA bar, I thought they were homologated, which takes precedence over the blue book design recommendations.

Speak to Mark at WSC Ltd.

[Smudge62]

When looking at the regs for ACSMC it says that there is a increase in capacity due to being forced induction 40% or 70% for standard cars

[Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Chairman]

40% is the same as the 1.4 multiplier!

[Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Chairman]

2 hours ago, overthehill said:

modified sprint and hill climb class to give me a better choice of tyres

Are you saying you want access to the list 1c type tyres as well as a and b, (hope that's the right code, I'm a little rusty!)

In which case my vague memory of sprint related rules was that you needed a full cage and HANS device, at least over certain engine sizes, if not all.

I'll be honest though, competing in a higher powered car like a Sport 250, I'd be a little loath to do it with only a rear hoop, and no full cage, anyway, but that's just my gut reaction. 

[Smudge62]

My plan was to start in road going class on list B as I think that with my current licence which is a Nat A Rally that is all I am allowed to do as I believe that I need a Nat A Speed to enter the modified class unless I have got that wrong. I was reluctant to go the full cage as I have issues with my back hence the reason that I have sold my rally car. I do have a HANS device as that rule came into rallying a few years ago.

[Rory's Dad]

4 hours ago, overthehill said:

I was reluctant to go the full cage as I have issues with my back

Ouch! Remember you only have just the one. 

[Smudge62]

Sold my race go-kart because of my back and now the rally car so the Westfield needs to take me into retirement, I will ask lots of advice in the next few days and then make a decision on the cage at the end of the week, I think that I could put up with a full cage at the moment but not sure how many years that would last and this will be my last competition car.

[Terry Everall]

As I understand things if your engine capacity including the 1.4 multiplier  is over 2000cc then where in road going or mod prods you need a full cage. 

[Smudge62]

Terry you are the first one to put it in English, its the multiplier that's got everyone confused. I think its this bit in the Blue book K1.6.1 (b) or (c) cars over 2000 complying with K3 or K4.

Are you able to help with another question, do I need a Nat A Speed licience for mod prods, thanks David

[phelpsa]

38 minutes ago, overthehill said:

Are you able to help with another question, do I need a Nat A Speed licience for mod prods, thanks David

No fine with Nat B.

[Matthew Haynes]

1 hour ago, terry everall said:

As I understand things if your engine capacity including the 1.4 multiplier  is over 2000cc then where in road going or mod prods you need a full cage. 

I don't think so!

The 1.4 multiplier is correct, the derived capacity is (2000x1.4) 2800cc.

However this does NOT require a cage in "Roadgoing Specialist Production".  see my summary below.

 

Blue Book 2018	My Interpretation for Road Going Specialist Production
10.1.3. Road-Going Specialist Production, Modified Series Production Cars and Modified Specialist Production Cars must comply with K.1.6.1 or K.1.6.2, with the exception of Standard Cars as defined in 11.9 where K1.6.1 or K.1.6.2 is recommended.	Road-Going Specialist Production, must comply with K.1.6.1 or K.1.6.2,
K. 1.6.1. Series Production, Touring and Sports Cars. (a) Production cars, Touring Cars, Sports cars up to 2,000cc – Basic rollbar/rollcage complying with K1 or K2. (b) Production Cars and Touring Cars over 2,000cc –Rollbar/rollcage complying with K3 or K4. (c) Sports cars over 2,000cc – Rollbar/rollcage complying with K3 or K4 or K60(i) & (ii) and K31.	(a) Sports cars up to 2,000cc – Basic rollbar/rollcage complying with K1 or K2   (c) Sports cars over 2,000cc – Rollbar/rollcage complying with K3 or K4 or K60(i) & (ii) and K31.
Sports Car. A car having either a non-detachable or a detachable roof with no more than one door on each side and a minimum of two seats situated one on each side of the longitudinal centreline. The two seats must be crossed by the same transversal plane. Interior dimensions must be inferior to the minimum dimensions applicable to Touring Cars.	Westfield = Sportscar

 

K1 K2
K31
K60