Spongy brakes lacking bite.......the norm ?

[Eastwood]

Have driven a couple of cars now, 2004-2006 reg, 1800 zetecs, with what are apparently ‘standard’ brakes from the factory. Little surprised that the brakes felt rather ‘spongy’, with a fair bit of travel in the pedal and lacking real bite.

Appreciate a bleed and new fluid may make a difference, but as it wasn’t just one car with these characteristics I wondered whether it’s the norm, whether a simple upgrade makes a real difference, etc.

Perhaps I just need to get used to them..........jumping from a 3 series BM straight into a westy for a spin isn’t perhaps a fair way to judge !

[Ian Kinder (Bagpuss) - Joint Peak District AO]

I'd expect it to be the other way round. My tin top (3 series Diesel Bmw) is far more spongy than the Westie. I bleed my brakes every two years and have a solid pedal. The pads work better once warm but I'm surprised at your experience! You do have to push harder due to the lack of a servo! However this gives much better feel and a firmer pedal. Perhaps you've been unlucky with the cars you've tried. Pop into somewhere like Toybox  and I'm sure his cars will all have a nice firm pedal! If the cars you've tried so far haven't had the brakes bled for a while, what else have the not been doing? Did you discuss with the owners etc?

 

[stephenh]

Agree with Ian, the brakes on any Westfield are going to feel very different to any modern tintop. You need to push harder because there is no servo, but once you get used to that it should stop as well as any tintop.

That said, my previous car did have uprated brakes supplied by Westfield at that time as the "competition" option (AP, with discs all round, and vented with 4 pot calipers at the front) and even with sticky sprint tyres they were powerful enough to lock the wheels if you braked too ham-fistedly, but boy did it stop in unbelievably short distances. Certainly the most powerful brakes I've ever experienced, and with hardly any pedal movement.

[6carjon]

Agreed with above. Modern cars have instant bite due to massive servo but nothing after the initial bite and are quite spongy if you push hard and keep the pedal pressure on.

Westfield are the complete opposite. Less initial bite and more progression but a rock hard heavy resistance type pedal.

Maybe the cars you tried weren't used much and needed some bedding in of pads or deglazing of discs.

It's also worth remembering the huge variety of choice in pads and brake caliper in a Westfield build.

People's preference rules in a kit car  whereas Volkswagen standards mandate......

Also possible some brake fluid are never changed from build as they do such low miles so become hydroscopic.

Try a well used one as suggested. 

Braking performance should vastly exceed tyre grip with no problem on something so light weight.

[SXRORY]

I bought my car and everyone said you have to push harder In a kit car I did not realise I had issue. It would stop but I had a lot of pedal movement. It was not great I even did a trackday like that  lol. 

Needless to say I bought ezbleed then  diagnosed a leaky wheel cylinder at the back with a load of air in it (first time I'd seen drums) And boom the car was transformed hard pedal and easy to modulate. 

If you thinking its ropey it probably is. 

 

[Kevin Wood]

It's also worth mentioning that, on cars with Sierra rear calipers, it's easy to get some air caught in them as the fitted orientation is not the best for bleeding. If you bleed them off the upright with the bleed port vertical you can often get a firmer pedal.

As said, the pedal in a Westfield will feel "different" to any tin top as it's a completely different type of system - unassisted versus heavily assisted, and light car versus increasingly heavy.

 

[Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Chairman]

17 hours ago, SXRORY said:

I bought my car and everyone said you have to push harder In a kit car I did not realise I had issue. It would stop but I had a lot of pedal movement. It was not great I even did a trackday like that  lol. 

Needless to say I bought ezbleed then  diagnosed a leaky wheel cylinder at the back with a load of air in it (first time I'd seen drums) And boom the car was transformed hard pedal and easy to modulate. 

If you thinking its ropey it probably is. 

 

This is one of those situations where everyone is a “bit” right, and is impossible to diagnose remotely. You’re one of the few where there was a problem. Most of the time there isn’t, but the reason many, many years of shared experience gave you the advice it did, is to a. Prevent the sinking feeling of panic, so that you can find out if there even is a problem. And b. Avoid having you going out throwing money at things until it’s known if there is an issue.

As I say, it’s tricky remotely, the people offering advice don’t necessarily know the experience or background of the person asking, nor the car, or it’s likely state, so you need to begin at the beginning each time.

This is where local area meets really score, because it’s so much easier when you can arrive in your car and explain that you think your brakes feel funny. There’ll usually be a few there that could double check them for you, or even let you try another Westfields brakes, and the likely issues can be homed in on much faster, without everyone having to second guess!

[jeff oakley]

It is a very subjective thing brakes and our cars have so many variables that can a cause a feel issue. I have had several Westfield and the feel is different on all of them.

Drum back brakes feel different to disc and the difference between a AP racing master cylinder and a normal one is huge, add in four pot front calipers and again it changes.

On many cars I have looked at the problem of feel is usually where the pushrod to the master cylinder is not adjusted properly, this introduces a potential for a bleed issue and once done they are much better.

My current car is discs all round with a normal master cylinder, normal calipers all round and it has the best feel of any I had. The previous road car had a AP racing, four pots front calipers and it was rock solid feel wise, I prefer I little movement in the pedal.

Pads are always part of the feel when braking as every set has differing characteristics,  some have good bite others have low initial bite but then grip like a vice as they get hotter.

As Dave said, best bet is to try to get the feel for a few cars and start from there if there is indeed a problem.

[SXRORY]

2 hours ago, Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Secretary said:

This is one of those situations where everyone is a “bit” right, and is impossible to diagnose remotely. You’re one of the few where there was a problem. Most of the time there isn’t, but the reason many, many years of shared experience gave you the advice it did, is to a. Prevent the sinking feeling of panic, so that you can find out if there even is a problem. And b. Avoid having you going out throwing money at things until it’s known if there is an issue.

As I say, it’s tricky remotely, the people offering advice don’t necessarily know the experience or background of the person asking, nor the car, or it’s likely state, so you need to begin at the beginning each time.

This is where local area meets really score, because it’s so much easier when you can arrive in your car and explain that you think your brakes feel funny. There’ll usually be a few there that could double check them for you, or even let you try another Westfields brakes, and the likely issues can be homed in on much faster, without everyone having to second guess!

Sorry my post was not supposed to be about the advice being given as wrong, as the reality is you do have to push harder. 

The actual general consensus was to to bleed them as well. 

It's just I went with the push harder for longer than I should have. I should of gone with my gut that they ain't right and bled them up sooner and upon doing so located the issue I had. 

 

 

[Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Chairman]

It’s always worth doing fluid changes on a new to you car, surprising how often the brake fluid, and coolant for that matter, get forgotten about.

FWIW, I change my brake fluid every two years on the Westfields I’ve owned. I figure while it doesn’t do the miles of a regular car, it is putting way more heat into them, plus the more irregular usage gives more opportunity for moisture to get in there.

[jimbobtcc206]

6 hours ago, jeff oakley said:

It is a very subjective thing brakes and our cars have so many variables that can a cause a feel issue. I have had several Westfield and the feel is different on all of them.

Drum back brakes feel different to disc and the difference between a AP racing master cylinder and a normal one is huge, add in four pot front calipers and again it changes.

On many cars I have looked at the problem of feel is usually where the pushrod to the master cylinder is not adjusted properly, this introduces a potential for a bleed issue and once done they are much better.

My current car is discs all round with a normal master cylinder, normal calipers all round and it has the best feel of any I had. The previous road car had a AP racing, four pots front calipers and it was rock solid feel wise, I prefer I little movement in the pedal.

Pads are always part of the feel when braking as every set has differing characteristics,  some have good bite others have low initial bite but then grip like a vice as they get hotter.

As Dave said, best bet is to try to get the feel for a few cars and start from there if there is indeed a problem.

Jeff

You mention badly adjusted M/C push rod. I’ve been told this makes a difference but I’ve just upgraded to a larger bore M/C and I could only see that adjusting the push rod affected where the pedal sat in relation to throttle and clutch pedals. Is there something else I need to be aware of with this?

Thanks

[Lyonspride]

Most tin tops these days have over-assisted single pot callipers, which require very little left foot effort and tend to "snatch" rather than being progressive. It's done because single pot callipers are easy to work on, they're cheap and when most customers take a car for a test drive they're wow''d by brakes that "seem" really good.

 

Jumping from a modern eurobox to a Westfield, what feels "spongey" is probably just normal progressive unassisted braking.

[jeff oakley]

18 hours ago, jimbobtcc206 said:

Jeff

You mention badly adjusted M/C push rod. I’ve been told this makes a difference but I’ve just upgraded to a larger bore M/C and I could only see that adjusting the push rod affected where the pedal sat in relation to throttle and clutch pedals. Is there something else I need to be aware of with this?

Thanks

The push rod needs to be able to return fully back. Often the rod is just too long and that means that the MC seals are already part way down the bore. The way to tell is to disconnect the rod from the pedal and make sure that it is fully back, then make sure that when you reconnect the pedal it does not push the MC down a bit.

Once that is right they should bleed through easily elsewhere. Hard to put in words so hopefully you have got what I mean, if not send me a PM and I can call you and talk it through

[Ian Kinder (Bagpuss) - Joint Peak District AO]

3 hours ago, jeff oakley said:

The push rod needs to be able to return fully back. Often the rod is just too long and that means that the MC seals are already part way down the bore. The way to tell is to disconnect the rod from the pedal and make sure that it is fully back, then make sure that when you reconnect the pedal it does not push the MC down a bit.

Once that is right they should bleed through easily elsewhere. Hard to put in words so hopefully you have got what I mean, if not send me a PM and I can call you and talk it through

@Sycho could this be your issue? Did you ever resolve it?

[jimbobtcc206]

Thanks Jeff, I understand what you are saying. I’ll double check this weekend and see what’s happening with it.