So....Diesel Cars and Transport

[Thrustyjust]

We all know how NoX levels are not good. We know that diesel makes less Co2 than petrol. So, all this 'scaremongering' by enviromentalists , causing the worlds governments to start banning or slowly pushing out diesels, from not really giving consumers information and not looking at the actual cure of the problem. 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42615559

Guy on there says 'push people to electric cars' .Um, hang on. Yes, fantastic. Give me 100k and I will drive a Tesla. Oh, hang on, when it reaches an 'average' age of a vehicle in the country (9 years ) it would be heading to its second battery change , probably at 25k a hit, which makes it uneconomical and therefore scrap. So, we then will have more vehicles coming to end of life sooner in the future? More environmental issues with disposal ?

Diesels are the scourge of the roads. Er, next hang on. Diesels are used for many forms of transport. Lorries, buses, coaches, boats , freight trains. generators, farming eqiupment. If we were to suddenly change these to petrol powered, then wont the world of CO2 go through the roof and we end up back at the beginning and suddenly diesel becomes a better proposition , as it has a lower CO2 ?

Petrol cars have issues too. They run hotter than diesels and also in an accident are far more likely to burn than diesels. Also, you wont get the range of a diesel. I can drive from the south in my XC60, to the north east ( god knows why ) and home again and still have 100 miles in the tank. I couldnt do that in a petrol car.

So, the world of hybrids. Not really got into these, although my boss has just got an Outlander PHEV. He has the power charger hanging out his lounge window to charge it overnight. It does 30 miles on a charge  He has a charging point being installed in his home in a few weeks, but in theory he will see an increase in £700 a year in his electrical power useage . Yes, this negates with his BIK as a company car, but he seems to think its a faff and not worth the effort so far. Also, if you want a quick charge cable, its £500 allegedly and you need to drink rubbish coffee and put up with feral children in a service area for 30 mins. We are looking at charge points now at work, but they are £900 each to buy , as have security systems in them to prevent non- employees using them and thats not saying we have enough incoming power supply to cover the power requirements. My MD has just ordered an XC90 T8. So, thats 2 in the company. I watch with interest, as I dont see it as being the right thing. Its clever stuff, but where the world dictates the value of a car, I can see these vehicles dropping like a stone as they age.

So, back to all electrics then. I must admit to thinking about an I3 for the latest wife, for her 10 mile commute , but she has just changed her job and now needs to commute 4 times this. Yes, its in range , but she has nowhere to charge at work and if the world did become electric cars, then we would struggle with the power supplies to sustain this kind of usage with everyone charging at night. Its not like the sun is shining then to solar charge.

Am I writing a load of twaddle or do you know anything different to my ramblings ?

[John Dolan - Wirral & North Wales AO]

Petrol, diesel, hybrid and electric all have there own plus and minus points.

But so does a pony and trap. Whiffy emissions, the M6 would be even slower. But on the positive side, no tax or insurance and your roses will be best in show.

I’ll stay with my V8 Westie for the foreseeable, it’s doing it’s bit for global warming.

 

[Lyonspride]

They'll turn against electric vehicles in 10 years time, it's all about propping up the automotive industry and very little to do with the environment. The average car is £25k, that's 5k VAT on every new car and currently around 2.5 to 3 million new cars sold every year (£12 billion a year for the treasury), that's without considering income tax from workers in car factories. Not only do our politicians have vested interests, but the govt itself NEEDS the automotive industry to keep selling at it's current rates.

Back in 2008/2009 they actively promoted diesel cars and put on the scrappage scheme to rescue the industry during the recession, it's impossible to suggest they didn't know about NoX at that time and the reduced (or free in some cases) VED tax was always going to be unsustainable.

When everyone owns electric vehicles, the loss to the treasury in VED alone will once again be unsustainable and the powers that be will start pushing toward something else.

To make people buy new cars, all you need to do is give them a flimsy excuse. A fake scrappage scheme, £500 cashback, free tank of fuel, reduced VED, etc etc and people will flock like sheep to buy that new car, "saving money" by spending all their disposable income on yet another lease/pcp "deal".
 

[pistonbroke]

How about a Curry Tax ?

We all know how that produces much more greenhouse gases than say fish & chips do 

[Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Chairman]

22 minutes ago, pistonbroke said:

How about a Curry Tax ?

We all know how that produces much more greenhouse gases than say fish & chips do 

Not if you have the mushy peas with the fish and chips!

[Terry Everall]

ALWAYS have the MUSHY peas

[Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Chairman]

23 minutes ago, terry everall said:

ALWAYS have the MUSHY peas

  Foul things, I’d rather have the diesel on my fish and chips. 

 

[Dommo]

10 hours ago, Thrustyjust said:

So, the world of hybrids. Not really got into these, although my boss has just got an Outlander PHEV. He has the power charger hanging out his lounge window to charge it overnight. It does 30 miles on a charge  He has a charging point being installed in his home in a few weeks, but in theory he will see an increase in £700 a year in his electrical power useage .

He should be able to do about 15k miles on that £700... which is the equivalent of 117mpg on petrol (at 120.7ppl) or 120mpg on diesel. Not bad for urban driving.

10 hours ago, Thrustyjust said:

and you need to drink rubbish coffee and put up with feral children in a service area for 30 mins.

You wouldn't charge a plug-in hybrid at a service station - they just don't have to range to make it worthwhile. Actually, "shouldn't" rather than "wouldn't", as many do. If you wanted to run pure electric you'd be stopping at every service station...

 

10 hours ago, Thrustyjust said:

We are looking at charge points now at work, but they are £900 each to buy , as have security systems in them to prevent non- employees using them and thats not saying we have enough incoming power supply to cover the power requirements.

If you are looking at them, don't even consider anything above a 7kw charger. 3kw is probably plenty given the amount of time people are at work, and the amount of electricity actually used getting there and back.

10 hours ago, Thrustyjust said:

So, back to all electrics then. I must admit to thinking about an I3 for the latest wife, for her 10 mile commute , but she has just changed her job and now needs to commute 4 times this. Yes, its in range , but she has nowhere to charge at work and if the world did become electric cars, then we would struggle with the power supplies to sustain this kind of usage with everyone charging at night. Its not like the sun is shining then to solar charge.

The new generation of every-day electric only vehicles has the range to cover this with ease.

I'll not comment on the power supply and environmental issues of course, largely because I suspect they're correct! Just giving some info as a current electric vehicle owner. Certainly on the environment front, I know that when I give my Zoe back at the end of the year (for I've no intention of paying the final lump sum, as it will be worth pence), it'll sit somewhere for ages before quietly being scrapped. Shame, as it's a good car. But the only bit of value in it, the battery, will find a future life attached to a solar panel somewhere, helping store all the energy created during the 20 minutes of sunshine we get in the summer...

My next car will be a diesel... though second hand so doesn't count. And only a diesel because they didn't make a petrol Discovery 4.

[Kit Car Electronics]

3 hours ago, Lyonspride said:

They'll turn against electric vehicles in 10 years time, it's all about propping up the automotive industry and very little to do with the environment. The average car is £25k, that's 5k VAT on every new car and currently around 2.5 to 3 million new cars sold every year (£12 billion a year for the treasury), that's without considering income tax from workers in car factories. Not only do our politicians have vested interests, but the govt itself NEEDS the automotive industry to keep selling at it's current rates.

Back in 2008/2009 they actively promoted diesel cars and put on the scrappage scheme to rescue the industry during the recession, it's impossible to suggest they didn't know about NoX at that time and the reduced (or free in some cases) VED tax was always going to be unsustainable.

When everyone owns electric vehicles, the loss to the treasury in VED alone will once again be unsustainable and the powers that be will start pushing toward something else.

To make people buy new cars, all you need to do is give them a flimsy excuse. A fake scrappage scheme, £500 cashback, free tank of fuel, reduced VED, etc etc and people will flock like sheep to buy that new car, "saving money" by spending all their disposable income on yet another lease/pcp "deal".
 

Why can't we accept that Governmental Scientific Advisers, just like Economic Advisers, make mistakes? Surely it's in all of our interest to have healthy manufacturing industries - automotive being one of the largest - why would you not want to encourage that? Who wins by seeing a weakened economy? Nobody.

[Blatman]

50 minutes ago, Kit Car Electronics said:

Why can't we accept that Governmental Scientific Advisers, just like Economic Advisers, make mistakes?

No, they keep giving the answers government wants to hear so the government keep funding the research. Don't get me started on that whole can of vested interest worms...

[Thrustyjust]

My boss has found out that it costs a fiver for 20 miles worth of charge now at motorway services. That fiver will get him 50 miles on petrol................. go figure that one out !! Oh and he is driving to Edinburgh in 10 days time , so was researching stopping points. I just said fill it with petrol and keep your right foot in.............

[Lyonspride]

4 hours ago, pistonbroke said:

How about a Curry Tax ?

We all know how that produces much more greenhouse gases than say fish & chips do 

You can't tax curry, that would be politically incorrect, the leftist lunatics would petrol bomb your house.

[DamperMan]

How I see it.

diesel if your doing lots of miles out side cities

petrol sorter distance more town driving.

large cities electric.

 

but if you live in a large city your unlikely to have your own drive.   There are hardly any charge points at the mo so electric in this situation is largely useless.    

Hybrid although sounds ideal only really shines in certain driving conditions, the rest of the time your just carrying a lot of expensive time bomb weights

A huge amount of pollution is caused by shipping which will run on almost anything and is totally Un-regulated. 

truck and buse have been diesel for a very long time for very good reasons.   In fact the bigger the diesel the more efficient it is.   The ‘old mans’ 260 bhp, 9l truck empty weighing 7500 kg did similar to the gallon to my Westfield.

i’m happy to move technology when the new tech is as good as the old and is ecologically as sound as the old.    Not just a thinly vailed sales and tax collection excersise. 

My final gripe stop start technology.  I’d really love to know how long the engine needs to be stopped for it to make ecological sense.   Carrying a larger, less ecological battery, larger alternator and more regular starter motor changed plus increased engine ware had surely a break even point.   Diesels use almost nothing ticking over unlike petrols anyway.   

 

[Paul Hurdsfield - Joint Manchester AO]

14 minutes ago, Lyonspride said:

You can't tax curry, that would be politically incorrect, the leftist lunatics would petrol bomb your house.

And just think of the emissions that would cause when your plastic windows start burning plus everything else in the house 

[Dommo]

38 minutes ago, Thrustyjust said:

My boss has found out that it costs a fiver for 20 miles worth of charge now at motorway services. That fiver will get him 50 miles on petrol................. go figure that one out !! Oh and he is driving to Edinburgh in 10 days time , so was researching stopping points. I just said fill it with petrol and keep your right foot in.............

Ironically it's priced to keep the plug-in hybrid people off of them