Westfield Eleven Engines....

[John Loudon - Sponsorship Liaison]

1 minute ago, MK11 said:

All these engines are way too tall for the XI bonnet.  My A Series had about 10mm clearance for the oil filler and 50mm sump to road, mind you I did run lower than most.

Well they fit under a Caterham bonnet quite easily which surprises me

[MK11]

7 minutes ago, John said:

Well they fit under a Caterham bonnet quite easily which surprises me

They fit under a standard Westfield bonnet too, but the XI is a different beast altogether.

[robhume]

I have to say that when I originally decide on the Zetec engine, I did not realise just how much of a bulge I would have to make.

Also trying to accommodate the MSA requirement for the ROPS was not easy and indeed involved cutting yet more bodywork.

I do like the car even although it was not designed as a sprint/hill climb car, the original 11 did race and successfully.

Years ago I came across a car called a Batten, which used a crossflow engine with a dry sump canted over to the horizontal which

made it sit quite low in it's chassis, so I am probably going Crossflow, canted over a bit to give bonnet clearance without a bulge. Always

provided the dry sump system will deliver oil safely.

The roll structure will also be changed to something less prominent but safe.

Changing to the crossflow engine will help with the class structure, as I think there is an up to 1700cc road going class and as a crossflow was

used originally for the Westfield Eleven when Chris Smith made it, it may help with registration etc.

It was always going to be an ongoing project.

 

[John Loudon - Sponsorship Liaison]

21 minutes ago, robhume said:

I have to say that when I originally decide on the Zetec engine, I did not realise just how much of a bulge I would have to make.

Also trying to accommodate the MSA requirement for the ROPS was not easy and indeed involved cutting yet more bodywork.

I do like the car even although it was not designed as a sprint/hill climb car, the original 11 did race and successfully.

Years ago I came across a car called a Batten, which used a crossflow engine with a dry sump canted over to the horizontal which

made it sit quite low in it's chassis, so I am probably going Crossflow, canted over a bit to give bonnet clearance without a bulge. Always

provided the dry sump system will deliver oil safely.

The roll structure will also be changed to something less prominent but safe.

Changing to the crossflow engine will help with the class structure, as I think there is an up to 1700cc road going class and as a crossflow was

used originally for the Westfield Eleven when Chris Smith made it, it may help with registration etc.

It was always going to be an ongoing project.

 

If a dry sumped X Flow fits then a Lotus Twin Cam should also? I would imagine there are plenty of similarly sized engines to one of those if dry sumped including my 1700 Puma, a K series or a Toyota 4AGE

[MK11]

2 hours ago, John said:

If a dry sumped X Flow fits then a Lotus Twin Cam should also? I would imagine there are plenty of similarly sized engines to one of those if dry sumped including my 1700 Puma, a K series or a Toyota 4AGE

I believe the 4AGE and K Series will fit without too much modification, don't know about the Lotus Twin Cam since the head looks quite tall.  The Climax engine will obviously fit for that added dose of originality.

If I build another, then I would stick with the A Series, but fit an alloy cross flow head and fuel injection from Specialist Components just because I like to try new stuff.  The 100bhp I had from the last engine was perfectly adequate power, but adding the alloy head may reduce  the weight slightly.

[stephenh]

Don't forget that the A series engine has it's camshaft in the block, driving the overhead valves via pushrods. All the more modern engines being mentioned have overhead camshafts, so they aren't just marginally taller, it is quite significantly taller having the camshaft above the valves.

If you are wanting to build a modernised version of the XI, probably for competition, then by all means go for something like a Sigma engine and accept that it will need a big power bulge on the bonnet. However if you want to build a replica of the XI, looking like an original XI, as a fun road car then I think it is sensible to use an A series engine which is what the kit was designed to use. Tuned to 100/110 bhp, it should be quite lively but still "old school", in keeping with the rest of the car. I actually like the idea of having a distributor and a carburetor. Then again, I'm over 70, so I'm "old school" myself!

[Rory's Dad]

Ok, here we go again. Hillman Imp engine, all alloy, ohc but tilted over, revs well but needs a lightweight bell housing and gearbox  

Right age too!!

[stephenh]

1 hour ago, Rory's Dad said:

Ok, here we go again. Hillman Imp engine, all alloy, ohc but tilted over, revs well but needs a lightweight bell housing and gearbox  

Right age too!!

Interesting idea. But then you have to find someone to supply a bellhousing to connect it to a suitable gearbox, bearing in mind that the Hillman Pimp was a rear engined car. And what advantage would it give over a 1300cc. plus A series engine? The A series is easier to get tuning parts for, and a relatively cheap bellhousing to connect it to a type 9 gearbox. All necessary parts readily available off the shelf.

[Nick Algar - Competition Secretary]

This is going to end up as one of those, if you want to get to point Z why did you start at point A you should have started at point X type debates.  Everything in competition ends up as a compromise against a set of regulations that have been drawn up at a point in time and of course may subsequently change.

Only my personal opinion but lovely as these cars are they just aren't ever really the "right" car to win Trophies in Sprints & Hillclimbs. Have some fun, drive something different, absolutely. Enjoy them for what they are, beautiful, stylish cars that are fun to drive due to the relative low power and grip. 

[robhume]

I think I said in my very first comment, if you want a winning car, the Eleven is not one, if you want to have something different and can be made to handle and

go a bit faster, it can.

 

[John Loudon - Sponsorship Liaison]

10 hours ago, Rory's Dad said:

Ok, here we go again. Hillman Imp engine, all alloy, ohc but tilted over, revs well but needs a lightweight bell housing and gearbox  

Right age too!!

Talbot Sunbeam 1.0 litre cars would provide everything required including engine, gearbox and axle - maybe also loom etc. Quite hard to find these days though.

[Simon Marks - North Oxfordshire AO]

I started my Westfied XI "journey" as the owner of a couple of Toyota 4A-GE engines and a suitable gearbox for the same and thought one of those would be idea for the Eleven.  When I visited the factory, Mark Walker suggested that for retaining value on the car I would be better to stick with the traditional A series engine.  I sold the Toyota twin cams and commenced my "traditional" build.  I started my motoring in Imps and one of those engines in an Eleven would be an interesting thing to do, particularly with the historic Climax connection.  A very useful feature of an A series is its torquey nature, which any Imp engine would always struggle to achieve.  However, Imp engines are expensive things nowadays, needs are serviced by less specialist engineers and parts suppliers, and always did need frequent attention.

I am very happy with my 106bhp A series which has an old car feel and noise and I have a fast road track day cam to keep the torquey nature and keep it "roadable".  The overall package at bang on 200bhp/ton is in keeping with the rest of my interesting car fleet and feels quick on the road compared with many other cars and, most importantly for me, my daily VW Passat.  My Type 9 box and Midget axle gives me 22mph/1000rpm meaning that 3,500rpm is 77mph and is, as a result, is happy in the fast lane on dual carriageways and easy to cruise along empty A roads.  With slightly amended suspension, the Eleven is an enjoyable car that shows how right the original concept was.

The engine bay on the Eleven is quite small - as it was designed around a previous generation of engines.  There might be some ideas for alternative engines to be had from the Sporting Trials community whose little cars have led to some less than mainstream power units.  Modern 16 valve (at least) units tend to be tall and wide (at the top)  which doesn't suit the Eleven's packaging but the Lotus Fifteen did set a precedent with a bulged bonnet to accommodate the larger capacity Climax engines.  The alloy construction of more modern engines means that the weight penalty over an A series may not be too much and save a drastic rethink of springing / damping.  The wonderful Lotus Buick from the 1950s even squeezed a 3500cc (forerunner of the Rover unit) V8 into an Eleven and is fearsomely quick as it still takes parts in hillclimbs today - but those alloy engines are not dissimilar in weight to a crossflow Ford.

As has been said above, the SE easier lends itself to an exponential rise in power with wider track suspension, more mechanical grip with much wider tyres and an ability to have a tighter turning circle without faired in wheels.   If you were to aim for a more aerodynamic SE, you undoubtedly would not start with an Eleven wheelbase/track combination!

However, we are all kit car builders / modifiers and don't always restrict ourselves to the obvious, or to the norm.  One of the best bits of my build (and subsequent ownership) was all the daydreaming, scheming and planning - I just ended up back with an A series as my perceived best source of motive power for my Eleven.

Simon

 

[Rory's Dad]

Happy days