rip nelson mandela

[XTR2Turbo]

I think there is some confusion because he was labelled a terrorist by many, including the UK and US governments prior to his release.  But don't confuse the term with what we may associate it with now and the reasons for that view publicly.  Not least concerns prior to the cold war that he was leading a communist movement....

 

I may be wrong but I don't think he was indiscriminately killing innocent people and creating terror ....  which is what most now think when your mention terrorist

[XTR2Turbo]

He probably had enough power on his release that he could have mobilised a backlash against the white South Africans that would have dwarfed what happened in Zimbabwe.  There are many problems in SA but his lasting legacy will be to have largely prevented violence, especially against whites, in the post apartheid era.

[XTR2Turbo]

Stu ---   you can look at specific incidents but he was in prison because he was leading a movement that threatened white supremacy in SA and the powers that be knew that if it gained momentum and had a powerful leader such and Mandela they could not stop it.

[Captain Colonial]

Norman:

 

The matter has already been reported but only a few minutes ago and will be considered by the Moderation Team in due course.

 

Try to bear in mind that we don't sit and monitor every single post in every single thread.  We're only human and have home lives and jobs to do as well.  Try exercising some patience and kindly reel in your neck a bit, your pop at the committee is OTT.  It's late, I'm very tired and got an email that dragged me back to this.

 

I have no idea what you're referring to regarding the other post about two young men, but that's a totally different issue.

 

I'm off to bed now, my hard work on producing PDF membership cards today that would have benefitted many destroyed by replies (including yours, Norman) on how to alter a PDF to make it say anything you like, thereby rendering them untrustworthy and my efforts wasted and useless. Not a happy bunny tonight so best if I go to sleep.

[ianstewartshouse]

Hi all for what it's worth I think this is getting a little out of hand. I am torn with Mandela as I can see the benefit of his later life to South Africa and I feel the system in SA prior to the fight was absolutely unacceptable. I am no historian and feel there is good and bad in us all.

As has been said before the history books are written by the victors and now is a time to celebrate the life of a man who made or facilitated great change.

As I live in Northern Ireland it is another situation where you have to draw the line I what is seen as acceptable. Today's terrorist is tomorrow's force for change. Stu's point is valid but in today's world we as the population decide who are Heros and who are Villans. Do the end results justify the means?

Let's not fall out but remember all the victims of conflict to bring a better world for us and our children to grow up in

I think the committee do an excellent job and all of us have the right to say what we feel without persecution or backlash.

[davidgh]

Whilst I admit that it was self-presentation, I think the substance and style of NM's famous Rivonia Trial Statement from the Dock (http://www.anc.org.za/show.php?id=3430) is a rational, internally coherent, and therefore probably an honest self-assessment of the man, his background, and the situation of his country at the time. It's worth a read.

 

 

 

  --  Oh, and I think there is sufficient doubt about the history to make all the views expressed in this thread, providing honestly held, legitimate. Mandela himself was open that he was no saint. It is however notable that, at "Rivonia", he was sentenced to life imprisonment (rather than death). Notwithstanding his profile, that sentence was way out of line with the prevailing policy on black people convicted of murder. 

  --  The committee/moderators are censors of libel, defamatory and personally offensive statements, obscenities, etc; we are not censors of freedom of speech. I think the rest of the thread demonstrates that the detractors are rather in the minority. 

  --  Having spent time in RSA, both before and after its democratization, I find myself very much with the majority.

[Captain Colonial]

Hi all for what it's worth I think this is getting a little out of hand. I am torn with Mandela as I can see the benefit of his later life to South Africa and I feel the system in SA prior to the fight was absolutely unacceptable. I am no historian and feel there is good and bad in us all.

As has been said before the history books are written by the victors and now is a time to celebrate the life of a man who made or facilitated great change.

As I live in Northern Ireland it is another situation where you have to draw the line I what is seen as acceptable. Today's terrorist is tomorrow's force for change. Stu's point is valid but in today's world we as the population decide who are Heros and who are Villans. Do the end results justify the means?

Let's not fall out but remember all the victims of conflict to bring a better world for us and our children to grow up in

...all of us have the right to say what we feel without persecution or backlash.

 

Well said Ian, thank you.

 

Having returned from a good sleep but still with last night's headache, I agree that Stu's point is a valid one and think Ian's follow-on excellent.

 

There is a fine but distinct line between moderation and censorship.  Stu's post might not be exactly what some people wanted to read, but it was written in a very reasonable, measured manner that encouraged thought rather than sought to inflame.  Absolutely no reason to moderate any part of it, and definitely no reason to censor it in my opinion.

 

None of us are saints or infallible, and Mandela was no different.  How he became a person of understanding, equality for all and reconciliation as age imparted wisdom is inspiring, but we all have to make mistakes before we learn to see all sides of a situation.  It's always seemed unfair to me that if you gain wisdom and serenity, you're usually too old and lacking the energy of youth in most cases to really make a difference.  Mandela was an exception to that and thank goodness he was.

[Terry Everall]

Where is the evidence of the people he is supposed to have killed???

He was tried and went to jail for leaving the country without a passport but I don't recall any charges of murder!

[jeff oakley]

At the moment I am sat in Vienna and having seen the news of Mandela there was a lot we never knew of his life, before his release as it suited certain people to keep telling others how bad he really was.

He was a lawyer and fought the unfairness of the laws that existed. He was an advocate of change by peaceful methods and only after the sharpsville massacre did he agree to using explosives against government targets. He did say that he would have used further violence as there was no negotiation with the regim as it was. His eventual jail sentence was to rid them of a troublemaker, nothing more or less, he was found guilty on trumped up charges by a corrupt system.

A man who was instrumental in the story was FW Declerk who released him and began to work with him to rid S Africa of the evil of apartheid, knowing that would be the end of white power.

Mandela is special as instead of going for revenge, he went for equality for all, without bitterness for his treatment. The world see's him not as a terrorist but a freedom fighter as no sane person could ever support a system where black were treated like animals or worse, any thing he did was through just need not selfish power pursuit.

There is still a lot to do in S Africa as his replacement is not in the same league in anyway and the poverty is still not being addressed,but his legacy is that everyone is born equal now, they have a choice to grow better than they could have before.

No one will speak of Winnie in the same way as she was certainly more radical and power crazed than Mandela she sought power for it's own sake and has never answered for her involvement in the death of Stompie McKenzie, one of her group of young boy bodygaurds.

I cannot envisage anyone else having such an effect for good in my lifetime. If you get the chance watch the interview Dimblyby did with Mandela as he told his story openly, honestly with humility, then watch the interview that the captain of the springboks gave to the BBC to see how he was affected .

[Norman Verona]

Thank you Jeff and Terry for putting the record straight.

 

When we have people in the world who will make a case that the holocaust never happened and Ghandi was the son of a W**re it's not surprising that white supremacists will make a case that Mandela killed people.

 

It is true that some ANC members did commit murder but it was not sanctioned by the party.

 

If Shipman was a member of the Tory party does that make the Tory party serial killers?

[Captain Colonial]

Wikipedia - not a perfect research tool, I grant you, but not 100% inaccurate, either:

 

"Umkhonto we Sizwe (or MK), translated "Spear of the Nation", was the military wing of the ANC. Partly in response to the Sharpeville massacre of 1960, individual members of the ANC found it necessary to consider violence to combat what passive protest had failed to quell. There was a significant portion of the ANC who therefore turned to violence to achieve their goals. A significant portion of ANC leadership agreed that this violence was needed to combat increasing backlash from the government. Some ANC members were upset by the actions of the MK, and refused to accept violence as necessary for the ending of Apartheid, but these individuals became a minority as the militant leaders such as Nelson Mandela gained significant popularity. Many consider their actions to be criminal, but the MK deemed the means justified by the end goal of ending apartheid. The MK committed terrorist acts to achieve their aims, and MK was responsible for the deaths of both civilians and members of the military. Acts of terrorism committed by the MK include the Church Street bombing and the Magoo's Bar bombing. In co-operation with the South African Communist Party, MK was founded in 1961.^[7]"

 

Now can we please return to the RIP section of this thread and leave history debates to the historians?  There's been more than enough unnecessary discord in this thread.  I think we can all agree he was a remarkable man and it's right we mark his passing and celebrate the accomplishments he made after his release.

[stu999]

It might have if he was leader of the Tory party...

[stu999]

Actually, I'll retract that last statement because it's hardly fair to compare Shipman to Mandela.

However, if the Tory party were responsible for numerous deaths, then yes, their leader must take responsibility. That was, (and still is when it suits) the way it is. Thank you for supplying that excellent example Norm...