doctors ,what a joke ,this country is on its arse

[Wile E. Coyote]

With respect, Norman, do you really believe that £1m capex just happens on whim?  Or that a committee of managers could spend such money just because they felt like it?

If so, it would be worth you searching out and having a read of the Standing Financial Instructions (SFIs) and Scheme of Delegation for a decent sized Trust.  If you do so, you'll see that the story the nurse described would appear to be either incomplete (to be fair she would be unlikely to know the fine detail) or an example of a team acting ultra vires.

 

I also find the suggestion that you can slice out 1/3 of the workforce and run a £100 bn enterprise (funded by the taxpayer) with little corporate governance - corporate governance that IS still provided in the French system, just not being acknowledged in this thread - more than a touch naive...

 

Yes the NHS can improve efficiency and productivity, but I'm really struggling with your blanket "all management is bad" view.

[Dodgey]

The long and short of it is that there are one hell of a lot more people now than there were when we were kids. And it's going to get worse. We have to get used to it, and perhaps start paying, and by that I mean not just tax.

 

I kinda liked the Italian system: My limited experience was this: You go to the hospital, you pay around 30 Euros, they treat you, you pay for a prescription (around the same as ours). I was never seriously ill, so I don't know the costs involved in long term treatment, but I went a fair few times with my ex wife - usual lady stuff. Always seemed around 25-40 euros. Always prompt , polite, efficient. I wondered whether the fact that you had to stump up around 30 quid put off time wasters?

 

As said (below actually) , you have to be careful of generalising. My Father died last month, and spent the last couple of weeks in the Beacon center in Taunton (palliative care - they look after the terminally ill) - they were amazing. You could not fault there commitment or work. Astonishingly good. They were so good they got a mention at the funeral. 

 

On the other hand - in hospital in South London (think Birmingham if you are not familiar with London) I was in A&E with multiple fractures in one hand and they actually frickin forgot about me during a shift change and left me in a small room for 4 hours until I went looking for people and reminded them I was waiting for plaster! I think that's a reflection of South London though, rather than the NHS :-)

[Young Pretender]

 

Now, you say we shouldn't complain about the NHS. I say that not only must we complain we must find a politician who will stop this nonsense and get him elected PM. If we don't it will only get worse. It seems to me that the NHS spends 1/3rd of it's wage bill on non-medical management. The French have the doctors manage their departments as we used to. 1/3rd of the NHS could be spent on medical staff and the correct equipment to provide the service the French have.

What I'm saying Norman is that we should debate the NHS and how it can improve, which is why I asked you about the French system.  We shouldn't just complain about the NHS without any balance or without the facts of which we are often void.

 

The media are completely disproportionate in their coverage and it's counterproductive.  Imagine as a nurse you go into nursing as a vocation certainly not for the money.  You make efforts to become a nurse, you work under huge physical and emotional strain for very long hours, often with peoples lives in your hands.  Then imagine that these people just face a blanket bashing of the NHS with no distinction between their efforts and what can be improved upon.  That is not healthy, it pushes good healthcare professionals away.  

[Norman Verona]

I haven't critisised any doctors or nurses.

 

Do you think that nurse is wrong about no one being present at the management meetings concerning her department? Do you think she's wrong about being given a piece of equipment that they didn't want and don't use?

 

Of course we need admin people, what we do not need are non-medical managers, some of which earn 6 figure salaries.

 

Hospitals used to be managed by doctors and a matron. If you think that we can't run a NHS with non-medical people running a medical organisation then I'm really worried what is and will happen. I have not quoted any press reports in my thoughts.

 

Over here my friend who is also my doctor could not believe we have non-medical managers running medical departments. Of course the French system has admin staff and they will have managers. But the medical people run the medical departments. My friend, Camille, runs the local hospital as well as his practice. He has a few admin people but the rest are doctors and nurses.

[User0083]

Sorry to interrupt, how's SteveD?

Have you got somewhere and are you still symptomatic?

[Young Pretender]

Norm, I'm not challenging YOU am I?  I made that clear.

[Norman Verona]

I'm aware of that. I was answering this:

 

We shouldn't just complain about the NHS without any balance or without the facts of which we are often void.

 

 

We brits are renowned for not complaining. However isn't this how we have got here.

 

A Staffordshire hospital is run into the ground by its non-medical managers. People die. But those managers seem to have kept their jobs and avoided prosecution. It's difficult to see why the medical staff on those wards allowed it to carry on.

[User0083]

I'm aware of that. I was answering this:

We brits are renowned for not complaining. However isn't this how we have got here.

A Staffordshire hospital is run into the ground by its non-medical managers. People die. But those managers seem to have kept their jobs and avoided prosecution. It's difficult to see why the medical staff on those wards allowed it to carry on.

Staffs hospital has taken the fall for this. Many nurses, doctors and other professionals will probably find working somewhere new difficult to move to, as they'll have some of the stigma attached to them. Probably not intentionally, but it will follow them for a bit.

Whoever was at fault for it has damaged a lot of careers. Why getting out of nursing, for me, seems the best plan at the moment.

[Norman Verona]

Stephen, Had something similar happened in a private nursing home the owners will be prosecuted. No action has been taken. Can you answer why the nurses who were left to cope on their own being grossly understaffed didn't report what was happening? (I think I know the answer)

 

Of course the guilty ones will find it more difficult to get jobs in the future.

 

Those that died will also find it difficult.

[User0083]

Norman, I mean the innocent nurses working at Staffs. Any found guilty will be struck off and removed from nursing. Hopefully criminally charged/jailed as well.

Is private nursing home had done similar the whole place would've been closed down in a heart beat! I seriously disagree with the way nursing works at the moment in most places. I've witnessed many mistakes and they're covered up or blame passed on. It's disgusting how some people get away with some things. A public Internet forum's not the place to discuss it. But I'm getting out of nursing and getting as far away from it as I can because I can't handle the "management" of the NHS and nursing in general.

I hear stories about people in general discussions and I say "Did you fill out a incident report form?" Always "No because..." and usually a daft excuse that causes me to roll my eyes. Some wards you pass incident that needs reporting to ward manager, a nurse that is too posh to wash and avoids ward work, then they decide if to report it and who to. So if my new nurse Norman came up and said the incident was poor management and needed reporting, as the management is my responsibility I would tell Norman to go was bed pans! That whole style of thing is why the NHS is on it's knees. Well one of the reasons.

As for people that died, it's horrible to say, but relatives will pin the death of a mother, sister, uncle, aunt... Etc on whatever they can during the 5 stages of grief,

And although many deaths can not be avoided and no super nurse/Doctor could of helped. At times a single person or a system may be to blame.

[Wile E. Coyote]

Do you think that nurse is wrong about no one being present at the management meetings concerning her department? Do you think she's wrong about being given a piece of equipment that they didn't want and don't use?

 

If you genuinely believe that hospitals are run in the way you suggest with these questions, and your subsequent posts suggest that you do, it is pointless trying to have a reasoned discussion about it.  

 

I would however love to know what piece of equipment she claimed cost ~£1m... as I suspect you may have been fed a random, but nicely sensational, number.

[Graham0127]

Everything in this country is a joke  .

Watching the FA cup final...yes I know it`s boring...BUT....BUDWEISER ribbons on our most prestigeous football trophy.

In the words of one SteveD...what the devil            (sorry but have to say it)

[User0083]

I ain't into soccer, please explain the issue with budwiser ribbons.

[Norman Verona]

Wile, I'm telling you what a nurse, who was giving up a days pay to try and bring a 4+ month waiting list down told me.

 

I don't know what the machine was, it was about 3' x 3' and about 6' high. It was covered in an opaque purpose built cover.

 

Was she telling the truth? I don't know, but it sounded true and credible. guest is saying similar to me.

 

I'm not having a go at the medical people, not even the nurses at North Staffs.

 

My conclusion having been in both systems is that the NHS is spending huge sums of money on non-medical management of medical departments. Would you bring in household electricians to manage a car workshop? Would you get a workshop manager to manage a carpenters shop? I could go on but I'm sure you get my point.

 

Are you telling me this is the case. Are you saying that the senior doctor of a department can choose what he needs to provide the service needed. Are you telling me that the nurses also have a say on how their job can be changed to provide a better service? 

 

I'm very happy to have a reasoned discussion. So far you've told me I'm wrong and asked what a piece of equipment was.

 

If you can answer my questions in italics I will consider this a reasoned discussion. 

[Norman Verona]

Budweiser ribbons on the FA cup. 

 

Nearly as bad as BMW's escorting the Olympic torch.