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Incorrectly registered Kit-Cars


nikpro

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Is the inference that a car whilst being sold as a Westfield from a SDV, could in fact be any old kit car that just happens to look like a Westfiled, and therefore reducing it's true value?

I suppose the bottom line being, as long as a buyer is happy with what he sees and the price he pays appropriate the V5 registration could be a moot point (?)

The Bottom Line is:

If it's a Westfield and it doesn't say Westfield on the V5 it is not correctly registered and you comit an offence.

If you comit this offence you could be arrested and the car could be seized - you will only get it back once it is correctly registered.

If it was built after 1999 it will require an IVA and the likelyhood is if it's not been correctly registered and built before 1999 it will still need to go through IVA - try putting it through IVA when the car is in a Police Compound  ???

If the seller is adamant it isn't a problem - get them to register it properly before you buy it.

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Hi guys, while I realise this is a very late reply I found this thread most helpful about six months ago, Therefore I thought I'd weigh in with my resent experience. I bought my first and only We

What a great success story and even better to hear common sense being applied at DVLA given some of the challenges with SVA etc! Thanks for updating the thread @Young knocker 1992

chazpowerslide

You know, if I was a WSCC member (you know fully paid up part of the community ect ect) and had an "Incorrectly Registered" Westy I'd really be thanking one or two of the more prominant club members for effectively shafting the value of my car through the floorbaords via this thread.

Let's face it, who is going to want to buy it now should I want to sell it?

Thanks a lot guys, the "club" really helped out one of their own on that one............ :laugh:  :laugh: and all in the name of a good "debate"  

goodness me  :bangshead:  :bangshead:  :bangshead:  :bangshead:  how many of you guys that have stated "opinions" on this thread have actually gone through the process of correcting the DVLA record with regard to an "incorrectly" registered car?

How many of you can give first hand advice from your own exprence on how this process can be acheived cheaply and with the least possible hassle?

How many of you have made the 'phone calls booked cars in for inspections, done the research filled in the forms and then been handed a new reg/V5 for your efforts?

Would I advertise my Westy as an Escort if that what the V5 said it was ?

Would I f**k  :bangshead:  :bangshead:  :bangshead:  :bangshead:

It is what it is full stop.

It's about time that one or two people on here crawled out of their own a********s and took a look at the real world and how the rest of us manage to live in it by applying the rule of common sence and reason.

I'm not taking a pop at anybody inparticular here either so don't get the wrong idea it's just that I see it's been happening a lot on here recently.

This type of thread really gets my goat, loads if "interpritations" of the law ect but no "real world" "nitty gritty" advice.

For the record and in my own direct experience (been there and done it three times)

Yes, driving an incorrectly registered car on the road "may" constitute an offence, it depends on the interpritation of the investigating officer.

The vast majority will let it go as they won't be sufficiently experienced enough with the ins and outs of the current legislation to make a call and know they are in the right.

Weather the Crown Prosicution Service (CPS) would choose to take the matter to court without allowing you the opportunity to correct the record is doubtfull.

If you have been honest and truthfull  even less so.

If you insure you car correctly (what it actually is rather than the description on the V5) it's insured as stated.

If you insure a Westfield as a Westfield and the V5 says it's an Escort the insurance company has insured a Westfield NOT an Escort.

The V5 description makes no difference to the insurance company.

Now that the DVLA can access central records for insurance/tax/MOT and cross reference those details to the central record on the DVLA computer it is likely that, if the car is insured, taxed and MOT'd as a Westy and the V5 states it's an Escort (or similar) the registered keeper will get a letter inviting the him/her to get the car inspected at the local DVLA office.

All the DVLA wants is to have the actual car correct to their record of it.

They are suprisingly compliant and helpfull in ensuring that the above is the case.

If the car was on the road prior to the date that SVA came (proof can be provided in the form of old MOT certificates, insurance certificates, service records ect) the DVLA will allow you to re-register the car without IVA/SVA

You may retain the origional Index number, maybe not.

This will bepend largely upon which components that are on the car came from the origional car on the V5 (lets say the donor Escort for example)

It is most likely that you will be given an age related plate to the donor vehicle as the conditions for this are easier to to satisfy from the DVLA point of view than a compleatly new registration and new V5.

You then pay a nominal fee for re-registration, 6 to 12 months tax and possibly a new set of plates.

If you cannot proove that the car was a Westy prior to SVA the minimum you would be asked for is an inspection to confirm the identity and then potentially a full mechanical check to ensure it's not a death trap before either re-registration or the DVLA record being re-written (as above)

If you genuinely have a pre SVA car that was on the road prior to SVA (and there will usually be evidence) it is most likely that you will not have to go through SVA to get the DVLA record corrected.

You may have to submit the car to an IVA test if the DVLA thought that (after inspection) the car was recently built and you were taking the p**s or you could not conclusively proove that the car was on the road prior to SVA (duobtfull in the vast majortiy of cases)

Lets face it, if the Locost community can nail together cars and put them through IVA from scratch a Westy is not going to proove too much of a challenge particularly as lots of the IVA kit for the current cars fits the earlier cars too

It's been done before, all the bits are out there.

Where owners can come unstuck in this situation is replicating the details on the V5 through the tax, MOT and insurance.

IE what they actually have is a Westy but all the documentation says it's an Escort.

This is obviously and offence and intended to decieve and people who do this deserve all the crap that they get.

Lets get real now, in the vast majority of cases mis registered cars will pre-date SVA which was time when the DVLA actually (through lack of policy/procedure and consistency) un-knowingly created the issues in the first place.

There will have been no deliberate deception to gat the car on the road.

Correcting the record at the DVLA in these cases should proove to be straight forward.

Mis regisrered cars post SVA are more problematical as the first owner/builder may be deemed to have deliberatly circumvented SVA.

However it still will be fairly straight forward to get the record corrected by the routes above.

In my own direct experience the DVLA has been most helpfull in advising me the best way to proceed in order to get what was required by both them and myself WITHOUT having to go through SVA/IVA

I would ask that before anybody else starts a thread such as this they carefully consider the implications that it will have on members of our community and therefore be very carefull in the way the infornation in the thread is set out so as not to alarm those that may be affected.

I have a lot of respect for Fraser and Smokey Mo (amongst many others) who I know to be helpfull decent people but we (the longer standing members of the club and ardent members of the on-line community) must show balance and consideration in our arguments because individuals with less experience may take our word to be gospal and in my own case I know I'm wrong at least as much as I'm right and have been prooved to be so.

Chaz.

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I apologise for my last post on this thread. I'm not removing it simply because otherwise Nikpro's post wont make sense. Too much wine. :bangshead:  :bangshead:
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I apologise for my last post on this thread. I'm not removing it simply because otherwise Nikpro's post wont make sense. Too much wine. :bangshead:  :bangshead:

:laugh:  :laugh:  :laugh:  :t-up: (after the most humble appology I've removed the litle 'dig' Stephen)

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Paul D Turner
You wouldn't buy a BMW 320 if it said Vauxhall Astra on the V5, you would run a mile, so why would anyone buy a Westfield if it said Ford Sierra on the V5. Same rule applies, something is wrong, Police would sieze BMW therefore they would sieze Westfield.
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Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Secretary

It's an interesting post from Ian; I'm glad to see he found the process of correcting the DVLA records straightforward, maybe and ideal one for the FAQ section? That way people asking about this in the future can be guided to a simple link and explanation of how to go about it.

However, I do find it begging the question, if it's so straightforward, bearing in mind the value of improperly registered cars is affected, whether it's brought up on this forum or not, why have the sellers not done it? Surely it's just like getting the car running OK, fully cleaned up, receipts and documentation available and in order etc.

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chazpowerslide

Sorry for the delay in reply, been away on a course over the last week.

Lots of prep work in the evenings for the following day and then playing catchup for the weekend.  

In reply to Gadgetman, IMHO owners are afraid of starting off the process because they see it as the end of their car as they know it.

Human nature dictates that if they do nothing it'll all carry on as normal and there will be no issues, anything else is more effort/potential cost and hassle.

So why bother?

In fact the DVLA will probably be more then helpfull in assisting in getting it sorted IMOE.

In reply to Fraser, I did not take anything you have said as a personal attack, I was not mentioned personally, I do not own a miss registered Westy (or any Westy for that matter)

How can it have been a personal attack?

My response was also not a personal attack on yourself.

I'm all with having a debate.

Yes by all means open a debate and let the topic be discussed but it is the way in which (in this case) the debate was opened is why I responded.

Fraser, you are well known and well respected member of the comminity.

You have been about for many years, have approaching 4000 posts, give good solid technical advice and sound opinion.

You usually put together well founded and logically though out responses to questions and issues, I for one enjoy your informative posts and the debate that they stimulate.

However with great knowledge (and skill in applying that knowledge) comes a great responsibility.

I believe that part of that responsibility is to be balanced and objective.

Many many people on here know that you are a long standing Police Officer, you even mention it on the post (and so rightly should know your stuff) and that you (as many of us are) are an ardent petrol head who has been involved with kit cars for many years.

Prefixing your posts with;

"The law surrounding Registrations as I understand it" understand it you should, it's part of your job..........

And ending it with;

"NB - The above is My Opinion only and should not be seen as fact - it is an opinion gained from research and personal experience dealing with the Courts and being 'involved' with Kit-Cars for over 20 years."

Only serves to re-inforce your expert knowledge in the field.

Therefore what you have written WILL be taken as absoulute weather you intended it or not.

You have presented yourself as the law afterall.

There is no balance, it's all gloom and doom.

The expert says it is because he offers no alternatives.

Do you expect the membership at large to put up a rounded debate against the fact of law and legislation that you expertly present because there is not one, obviously.

 

On reading your posts those that want to buy a Westy will never look at a miss registered Westy and those with one will never sell it on the balance of what you say.

Very near the end the post you say;

"Anyway……………discuss!"

Discuss what?

Your opinions as you laid out in the OP?

The wider issues of miss registered cars?

How much of an expert you are in this field?

The law as you present it?

In your second post you then further re-inforce your expert knowledge with

"Regulation 16 covers the notification of an alteration to a vehicle" followed bt the law/requirements.

"Correction of registration document" followed by the requirements.

And and by...........

N.B. Comitting any of the above Offences carries a Power of Arrest/Seizure of vehicle.

Again, there is no balance, you may as well burn your miss registered Westy because it's worthless.

What do you want?

Do you want a futile discussion upon the law and legislation that is enshrined in our constiution? (pointless as you are factually correct)

Or, were you genuinely open to discover HOW TO SORT OUT THE ISSUES so you do not fall foul of the laws that you state?

If you did want the discussion then why not open the post under the heading of how do you re-register a miss registered Westy?

Fine, if that was the case state the legislation and pitfalls of not complying but ask how an owner could go about conforming to it rather than position your post as you did which came across scaremongering backed up by your expertise.

For balance and for the record, I have re-registered 2 of my own Westfields (my first Westy, a Pre-lit and the black one that was stolen) and assisted another owner with the re-registration of his Westfield.

The Pre-lit was recorded on the V5 as an Escort 1600 GL and had a lot of history with it. Most of the components looked to have come from the donor car so after inspection and a look through the paperwork the DVLA let me keep the donor reg and ammended the V5 to take off the owners of the Escort and ammend the Escort to Westfield 7.

The tax disc and V5 were re-issued

Job done in about 6 weeks.

The black one was more complex because the parts could not be tied to a common donor and I did not have much in the way of history.

Again the car was inspected and on the strength of the documentation I proveded was given a Q plate a new V5 stating the first MOT date as the registered date along with the DVLA record being created to include the previous owners of the Westy but not Escort.

That took one visit to the DVLA local office and 8 weeks to complete.

The one I helped out with that belonged to a third party was a Seirra SDV that was stated as a 2.0 Seirra GLX on the V5 and was completed in IRRC 2000 so should have been subjected to an SVA test.

This car had slipped through the net untill it's 4th owner got the letter inviting him to have the car inspected at the DVLA local office (this was IRRC 2009)

On this one the DVLA concluded that as the car had been on road since 2000 (two years after the introduction of SVA) and had masses of documantation as proof it would be unfair to have it subjected to SVA.

The owner was asked to provide an engineers report (which was done by the AA) as testiment to the car's build and saftey.

The car was then re registered with the donor index number, the DVLA record altered to Westfield SDV and the owners of the Seirra removed.

The Tax disc and V5 were re-issued within about 8 weeks.

The owner was fully prepared to submit the car to the SVA but it was not required.    

I completely agree that there are people out there who deliberatly and fraudulently use kit cars on the road that have been built after SVA/IVA and never been presented for inspection for what ever reason.

And yes, this is obviously an offence.

If a Westfield comes up for sale that is on the road and was built after SVA/IVA and has not been presented for the SVA/IVA it should not be too difficult to put it through IVA as it will more than likely been built from a compliant kit unless it was one if these "stood in the shed for 20 years part built projects" that come up from time to time.

Even then, SVA/IVA compatible bits are readily available to get the car through.

In my own experience the DVLA will not immediatly request that the above car go through IVA, instead they will ask to inspect it and any documentation you have with regard to the car to ascertain it's build and on road date.

During the inspection the numbers from the major components should be taken so the DVLA can check to see if any of the bits are stolen.

Once this is done the DVLA will make a descision on weather or not to request thet the car go through IVA or be retrospectively re registered

Sometimes a new age related plate will be generated if enough of the components track back to a major donor and sometimes the donor index number will be used if the majority of components track back to the donor.

If the major components are not from a single donor (purchased seperatly) it is most likely that a Q plate will be issued.

If the car is obviously a recent build it is most likely that an IVA test would be required. All of the above is at the descretion of the DVLA based on the eveidence provided by the owner and via the DVLA record.

In most cases, the DVLA record will be changed/created to reflect the actual number of keepers of the Westy and remove the ones that owned the donor vehicle.

Please do not take what I have written as an attack on yourself Fraser, it's not ment that way.

I am a firm believer that people on here who have obvious knowledge and expertise in an area MUST provide a balanced view so their opinions (right or wrong) are not taken absolutes.

Chaz.

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Ian,

I really can't argue against that very well balanced Post and I have to say it is superbly written.

Unfortunately (or fortunately) the law in the UK isn't 'absolute' and has numerous 'grey areas' - you have described that it isn't all 'doom and gloom' for people that don't have correctly registered Westfields and give them an insight as to how the registration can be corrected.

It is a respose like yours, with personal experience, that I was hoping someone would post.

(Points of Law are debated daily in Police stations amongst Officers and with the CPS, then further debated at Court where a trial may become a 'stated case' which forms the majority of English law..........just because it states a definition doesn't mean it's absolute.)

I, personally have never dealt with the DVLA in respect to owning an incorrectly registered KitCar, yet I know others have - I was hoping people could post their experiences (as you quite rightly have) to show that 'it's not the end of the road'.

IME Westfield's in general have always been at the 'top flight' of Kitcars and the Factory have always been good on advice at any part of the build including registration.

If there is/are incorrectly registered Westfields the chances are it will be possible to correct these errors - I just think it's very important people do.

I do again thank you for the contribution Ian.   :t-up:

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one major thing is with a incorrectly registered car ,say the v5 says escort and its insured as a westfield ,if you have a accident the insurance check with the dvla automaticly what the car is (they do not do this when you insure it only when you try to make a claim),so it comes back as ford escort this will invalidate your insurance amongst other things and render you liable for prosecution for a number of offences
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I have watched this thread with interest as I have just been in the throes of purchasing a none Westfield "interesting" :suspect:  :blush:  :suspect:   kit car project.

The owner of the vehicle that I am buying went to great lengths to emphasise the fact that vehicle was correctly registered as what it is and had been properly subjected to SVA. He also pointed out that a large number of these particular vehicles are not correctly registered and that folk have a lot of trouble insuring them properly with their incorrect identities, and they have a market value considerably less than properly registered ones.

Chaz's post shows that there is light at he end of the tunnel for owners of mis-registered cars, :t-up:   :t-up: but it will take a little effort, and with respect to Frasier he did point out that it was his opinion not a legally binding open and shut case, and was open to debate.

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  • 1 month later...

Going back to Westfield chassis numbers - mine has an 'S' followed by 4 numbers - and that's it. From 1998.

I'm pretty sure it's registered correctly etc., but why was there not an example chassis number like mine given with the others?

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  • 1 month later...

Chaz - regarding your above experience of registering a previously incorrectly registered Westie could I please ask you to drop me an email at m20upe@googlemail.com as i can't seem to message you on here.

Thanks

Ian

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  • 7 years later...
Young knocker 1992

Hi guys, while I realise this is a very late reply I found this thread most helpful about six months ago, Therefore I thought I'd weigh in with my resent experience.

I bought my first and only Westfield several years ago cat c damaged from HBC salvage, realising that they could be wrongly registered and the logbook wouldnt be available as most of you know until being repaired and VIC checked.

I decided it was cheep enough and even though it was on a 1972 reg how could it be registered wrong if the insurance has payed out on it, wrongly so.... last year after DVLA changed there policy and no longer needing a VIC check, now just simply re-apply for the logbook.

Wich I did shocked and horrified to find it was registered as a ford yeah... just a ford,

 

That brought me to reading this thread which encouraged and gave me hope to get on the phone to DVLA, after several lengthy conversations with them a certificate of origin from Westfield and a pencil rubbing of my chassis number they agreed to change the name on my logbook to westfield SEIW the date of first registration is still 1972 and it's still a L plate tax and M.O.T exempt but they changed the year of manufacture to 1998 wich is when the westy was built.

 

I found the lady at DVLA most helpful and she wanted it registered correctly just as much as me when she did some digging in the cars registered history it had been as a few things in the past, fireblade serria 4x4 amazing what people do! Thankfully it's all sorted thanks to you guys.

Young knocker

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Ian Kinder (Bagpuss) - Joint Peak District AO

What a great success story and even better to hear common sense being applied at DVLA given some of the challenges with SVA etc! Thanks for updating the thread @Young knocker 1992:praise:

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  • 1 year later...
dhutch
On 10/10/2019 at 07:07, Young knocker 1992 said:

Hi guys, while I realise this is a very late reply I found this thread most helpful about six months ago, Therefore I thought I'd weigh in with my resent experience.

I bought my first and only Westfield several years ago cat c damaged from HBC salvage, realising that they could be wrongly registered and the logbook wouldnt be available as most of you know until being repaired and VIC checked.

I decided it was cheep enough and even though it was on a 1972 reg how could it be registered wrong if the insurance has payed out on it, wrongly so.... last year after DVLA changed there policy and no longer needing a VIC check, now just simply re-apply for the logbook.

Wich I did shocked and horrified to find it was registered as a ford yeah... just a ford,

 

That brought me to reading this thread which encouraged and gave me hope to get on the phone to DVLA, after several lengthy conversations with them a certificate of origin from Westfield and a pencil rubbing of my chassis number they agreed to change the name on my logbook to westfield SEIW the date of first registration is still 1972 and it's still a L plate tax and M.O.T exempt but they changed the year of manufacture to 1998 wich is when the westy was built.

 

I found the lady at DVLA most helpful and she wanted it registered correctly just as much as me when she did some digging in the cars registered history it had been as a few things in the past, fireblade serria 4x4 amazing what people do! Thankfully it's all sorted thanks to you guys.

Young knocker

 

That's a great piece of information, and glad to hear it turned out that way for you. 

 

I have a correctly registered 1991 (pre SVA/IVA) car but have seen plenty of wrongly registered cars flagged on ebay etc, seen tails of woe and horror, but less stories like your own.

 

This thread came up while I was trying to find dates for the amnesty, which I have yet to get a fix on, but the trigger was a conversation I've just had about someone who bought a very tired 7-type and 'deconverted it' using a grp escort shell and other running parts. Don't know any details or even for sure if the story is true.

 

However the price of early Escorts these days, it might well be the case that an 'Escort V5c' is currently worth more than a tatty kitcar. Which is an interesting alternative view point of these cars!

 

 

Daniel

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