DavidC Posted April 30, 2002 Share Posted April 30, 2002 Hello all, I'm graduating from uni this summer and have a job lined up (providing I pass my degree ) and have decided to build or buy a 'seven' style car. At the moment I'm looking at Westies and MK Engineering's 'Indy' locost. Obviously the budget will be tight initially, but I have a few questions. 1) Westfields website mentions a starter kit (HERE) for £5000 that includes pretty much everything other than the engine, g'box, steering, wheels, front ups, radiator and horn. But I got the latest brochure today, and I can't see any mention of this package in there at all. Is it actually a SEW starter kit with £3000 of Westfield sourced extras conveniently added to look like a £5k package? 2) Anyone used a Pug Mi16 engine before? What g'box and bell housing would I need to fit it? Tempted to go this route cos I've got a 306 S16 with the 2.0 Mi16 engine in it at the mo, and that's got a nice 155 bhp as standard. The pre-cat versions are even better, 1.9ltr 160bhp and a (comparatively) lightweight alloy block. 3) If to start with I used Sierra 2.0 donor parts, what kind of performnace would I be looking at, assuming the engine and box are in reasonably good running condition. 4) I've looked at Vulcan Engines website, and they list the 150bhp and 160bhp OHC Pintos at £2500 ish exchange. Does this meant you part ex a standard engine for a modified one, or are you paying the £2500ish for the mods to be done to your existing engine? errrr...that's all I can think of at the moment. Oh yeah, what are your opinions on buying 2nd hand westies (or any kit car really)? Does the not-building-it aspect take some of the fun out of it, or does the turnkey thing kinda make up for that? Right, 1 final question. If the Mi16 engine proved to be too much of a pain in the A***, which other engines would you recommend and why? Thanks David C Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterg Posted April 30, 2002 Share Posted April 30, 2002 No doubt others will be along in a minute by here's my tuppence worth based on buying a 2ndhand Westie in March last year. 1) Yes, I did miss out on building it originally but as some here know I've made up for that by taking it to pieces and redoing lots of it (well it is 12 years old) to my satisfaction over the last 2 months. 2) Being able to drive it straight away was nice and the constraints of my time and budget just wouldn't allow me to build one anyway. 3) As has been said before, you get to buy a car someone has had all the grief over and got it cheaper than it would cost to buy new so you can spend the money on upgrading....these cars almost never die, they just evolve 4) Not sure if the Pug engines have ever been used but lots of different engines have so as long as they physically fit there's probably no reason why not except that you'll have to find someone to make adapters/bellhousings etc. as they'll never have been produced before. 5) Performance.... let's just say that in any se7en type car weighing only circa 600kgs and even with a fairly basic Pinto you'd be looking at 0-60 in around 7 secs and handling to beat most tin tops. 6) you don't need to go to Vulcan, there are plenty of places to pick up 2ndhand 'tuned' engines from people upgrading (there's that word again! 7) as for 'other' engines, most people use either Ford (x-flow, Pinto or Zetec 1.8 or 2.0) or Vauxhall (2.0 16v xe) plus of course there are the bike engines 8) buying any kit car 2ndhand is just a matter of giving it a good look over....they're very basic and you normally don't have the 'hidden' rust traps of a tin top to worry about so you can see what you're buying - and if it needs some work then so much the better as you'll really learn how it's put together when you take it apart!! BTW - my numbers bear no relation to your question numbers so please ignore them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick M Posted April 30, 2002 Share Posted April 30, 2002 In sort of reverse order, I'd seriously think about buying a second hand car first and then moving on to a new build when time and funds permitted. Despite Westfields brochure saying you can build one for £5000 + engine, etc., it never works out like that in practice. You end up either spending a lot of time (and money) sourcing and reconditioning bits or you just bite the bullet and get new parts from Westfield. You can, therefore, end up with a kit that take a while to build or which you feel is always a compromise. Buying second hand allows you to have a car, enjoy it and to decide which bits you like and which you don't. You can then factor this into you ideal spec car and go to Westfield and order your kit. As for engines, I think the M16 engine is a bit tall for a Westfield, plus you'd need to make engine mounts, exhaust and maybe a custom bell-housing or adapter plate to mate it to a Ford gearbox. Of the other engines to consider, the Vauxhall 2.0 probably comes out as the best in terms of performance and upgradability, the Zetec wins on initial cheapness and abundant supply but it does have its limitations on out and out performance when you come to upgrade it. Personally I'd avoid the Pinto - it's getting on a bit and isn't the last word in performance or lightness. CVH or Xflow are fine if you're not after massive amounts of power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidC Posted April 30, 2002 Author Share Posted April 30, 2002 Well, I've been told that the Mi16 will mate to the gearbox outta a pug boxer van (apparently RWD) so that could sort out that potential problem. As for the tallness of the engine,I saw that on Puma Racing's site. Does anyone know by how much it is too tall? The reason I'm tempted by the pug is cos I know how much power you can get out of them, and it's a massive amount. With the Vauxhall engine, is that the one outta the Astra? And which g'box does it use? Cheers DC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkenyon Posted April 30, 2002 Share Posted April 30, 2002 I'm pretty sure those Mi16 engines all had steel cranks, making them good for 8500rpm without any trouble, too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick M Posted April 30, 2002 Share Posted April 30, 2002 Yes, the Vauxhall engine can be found in Astras, Cavaliers, Calibras and Carltons. Using a bell-housing from someone like SBD or A-Frame you can couple it up to a Ford type 9 gearbox. Pug engine may be fine, but if you're on a budget don't forget things like engine mounts and an exhaust will cost more if they're one-off items. As for the gearbox out of the van, you'd need to check that it fits in the chassis before you get too far down the line. And then you'd need to get a prop-shaft made. And you'd need to think about clutch actuation as well. I'd also check the ratios quite closely too - no point in having something with completely the wrong gear ratios as it won't be much fun to drive. Not trying to p*** on your chips, just pointing out things to look out for Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david.c Posted April 30, 2002 Share Posted April 30, 2002 Oh no.............another DavidC I went the prebuilt route myself last July and have had instant fun. A friend of mine is building his own started 18 months ago and still has about a year to go at the current rate. Also he is dreading the SVA test. I think it depends how much satisfaction you will get from the build stage. Finally, as mentioned by others, I could not have built a car to my spec for the price I paid for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidC Posted April 30, 2002 Author Share Posted April 30, 2002 The van gearbox idea was only put to me yesterday, I kinda thought the ratios may be completely wrong anyway. Okay, I think i'll abandon the Mi16 idea for now. rkenyon: The mi16 block in my s16 is doing 7500rpm no probs at the mo. What are the standard power outputs of the Vauxhall XE, Ford X-Flows and CVH units? DC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blatman Posted April 30, 2002 Share Posted April 30, 2002 Abandon the Mi16 engine completely. It WON'T fit. I know someone contemplating this conversion, and he ended up selling the Pug engine 'cos it wouldn't fit. The fella in question is an Automotive Engineering graduate............. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidC Posted April 30, 2002 Author Share Posted April 30, 2002 Okay, one last question. re Gearboxes. I see that there's Type 9 and MT75s What are the differences? I know that the Type 9 (or at least I think I do, feel free to correct me) is the 5 speed Sierra box. thanks DC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Seabrook Posted April 30, 2002 Share Posted April 30, 2002 Re outputs from different engines 1800 Zetec 105 spec will give you about 120ish bhp on carbs or t/bodies. 1800 Zetec 130 spec or 105 spec with 2000cc cams will give you about 155bhp. 2000cc Zetec on carbs is about 165bhp. 2000cc Zetec on Dunnell t/bodies 175+bhp. Vauxhall vx on carbs will give about 170-175 bhp on t/bodies 180-185 bhp. To get these power figures you will need a good manifold and silencer. As regard to tuning the Vauxhall will ultimately yield more power. Up to about 290bhp when modified but this will cost about £12000 plus vat aprox. To the Zetecs 275 bhp (sorry I do not have a price on this). Tuning up to 220-240 bhp pound for pound there is not much to choose between the Zetec or Vauxhalls Vex. The Zetec is about 20kg lighter than the Vx aprox. 10kg is worth about 3bhp in the PTW ratios so in unmodified for he is nothing to choose between the to engines. The ford engine will not require a different bell housing like the Vx will so that will be a little money saved. The ford units are more readily available than the Vauxhall unit although the 2000cc Zetecs are still not that common. Modern 16 valve engines in a 7 type car if you are going to tune it are great as they will deliver large amounts of power and if set up correctly will be very drivable even on carbs. Myself I have a modified Zetec delivering just over 200bhp and have been very please with it. I am not going to get into which is better ((Vauxhall or Ford) sorry Blatman ) but look around and see what fits you pocket and try and test drive some. Type 9 and MT75 gearboxes are both Sierra boxes the type 9 will be better for future upgrades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blatman Posted April 30, 2002 Share Posted April 30, 2002 Evenin' Matt. Not baiting me tonight? Gearboxes.......Type 9 every time. Smaller, lighter, and you'll save another 10kg's or so when you fit an ally bellhousing in place of the horrible cast iron lump. That'll leave my Vx and Matts Zetec weighing the same, except his MT75 made up for it before taking this into account............ Type 9's have loads more options in terms of new/different ratios for the gears, as well as the options of straight cut and dog 'box versions. Fit a type 9 into a chassis with an MT75 tunnel, and you'll get the engine waaaaay back, for better weight distribution/handling. Have a look just how far back by clicking here. Note the distance from the rear of the nosecone to the front of the engine............ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidC Posted April 30, 2002 Author Share Posted April 30, 2002 Right, I think my next move should be to come along to one of your club meets (I assume you have regular regional meets??) I'll be the one in a dark red 306 S16 DC ps: the last time I joined a forum for an owners club to find out info, I ended up buying the car (the S16). This bodes well I'd say Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blatman Posted May 1, 2002 Share Posted May 1, 2002 You MUST get to Stoneleigh this weekend. You'll be able to join the club, and you'll see >300 Westfields......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidC Posted May 1, 2002 Author Share Posted May 1, 2002 It's tempting, but I really should be revising for my 8 exams that start next week!!!! Tell me where it is and how t oget there from Birmingham and I may find myself there on Sunday DC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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