Bit of a worry for the Kit Car Community

[Thrustyjust]

Its alright.Obviously there is a bit of cash floating around in Nottingham,as the SVA say this  

Just had a interesting phone call with martin at nottingham sva centre and apart from the normal strenghing that you have to do ie seat belt mounts shocker mounts then the kit as it is does not need a steel chassis or box section adding it just needs common sense in building the kit but martin did say that if rhsc supplied the test data relating to seat belt mounts ie pull test then that will kill this thread dead.

Is that is all that is wrong seat belt mountings.I think thats just the start.

[ChrisG]

My comments and a few pictures of the Lightweight as posted on Locostbuilders a few months ago having had a good look over a partially built kit that a friend of a friend was building. All in my opinion

When I saw a chassis part built a few months ago it was obvious how weak it was compared to a steel spaceframe chassis, especially in some of the most important areas like suspension, drivetrain and passenger area. Having reached the stage of almost completing the chassis, the owner of the chassis I saw is now of a similar opinion, initially the car was purchased as a potential light weight track / race car but he too now feels that it is not suitable for use on track even with the improvements he planned to make to the chassis (foam sandwich as much as possible, properly bond the panels together as opposed to just rivetting as RH suggest etc).

As an example the tub sides and transmission tunnel are all single skin ally of approximately 1.5mm thickness with the top “rail” of the chassis just single thickness ally bent over as 3 sides of a square so not properly boxed, i.e. similar to an ally skinned Locost chassis side, but without the steel spaceframe part to rivet the ally to! The diff also appears to be mounted by bolting it through a flat panel of 1.5mm ally that sits either side of it, again I couldn’t see how it will cope with any serious power output without the diff ripping itself from the mountings. See the pics below to see what Im on about

The suspension arms pick up on the bit of 2” box section ally you see in the pictures below, suspended through 2” squares cut into the ally sheet with no obvious method of accurately locating it to get the geometry accurate without complicated measuring. This is the same on the front and the rear suspension

Side Rail of chassis by the driver

Rear Diff Mounts

Rear Diff Mounts 2

Back End

[chazpowerslide]

Those pics kinda make my point really Chris.

Where did tht info come from Thrustyjust?

Chaz.

[ACW]

OMG. I can remeber having a heated argument with someone who suggested taking a spaceframe chassis of the WF and fabricating in aluminium. Trying to explain a different lightweight  material like ally needs different approaches to manufacture.

but really this is something else? how does the builder jig the car during assembly ? There will be so much compliance in that chassis, stress corrosion will have it cracking in no time.

All entirely my opinion based on nothing more that basic engineering principals.

[Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman)]

Just out of curiosity, if the "lightweight" is as heavy as they're quoting, how heavy's the ordinary version?

I tried to have a look on the RH web site, but it appears to have been suspended.

[Paul M]

Those pictures are scary. I wouldn't dare drive something with a diff supported like that. There's a thread on the Pistonheads kit forum that suggests that RH may be in trouble ( Pulled out of harrogate show & website is now suspended)

[chazpowerslide]

From the RHOCAR Website as posted by the guy whose car failed.

Quote

"Listed below are the structural failures. Copied exactly off the failure sheet with examiners notes in brackets

FAILURE SECTION 5

A seat belt anchorage or the surrounding vehicle structure is of inadequate strength and likely to fail. (No box section in areas of seat belt mountings or associated component attachments, no triangulation or bracing of thin panels, pop rivets used near seat belt anchorage strengths.)

FAILURE SECTION 15.1

When driven, the safe control of the vehicle is or is likely to be impaired due to design or construction feature or characteristic (Monocoque has absence of structural box section in construction)

FAILURE SECTION 15.1

The vehicle structure is of inadequate strength and likely to fail prematurely. (vehicle construction not considered to withstand forces and vibration to which it is likely to be subjected to.)

FAILURE SECTION 15.1

A suspension unit anchor, shackle or attachment bracket of inadequate strength and likely to fail prematurely. (All suspension components in box sections bonded and fixed with pop rivets and self tapping screws to main panels.)"

And this from what I believe is one of Robin Hood's USA agents Cloveland Motorsports, INC

"First, thanks to locostv8@lyclos for alerting me top the posts. Our shop has been very busy and may not have picked up on the discussion.

The Lightweight is "new" and is very different from a conventional framed Locost. It is a TRUE aluminum monocoque design. Builders should keep this in mind when they are deciding what kind of kit to build. Many may be looking strictly at the cost. We see most of the market to be autocross related and have had many inquiries from bike engine builders, electric car builders and those that low weight is the primary goal. If the primary use is a sunday or daily driver, we certainly still recommend a full framed car. We do have to agree with some of the inspector's findings. In our own build, we have made changes to strengthen places that were questionable. We have added some steel in the rear suspension areas and added more boxing and bonded several layers of aluminum in others. All of the changes are easy to do. Tha additional weight is minimal.

In defense of Robin Hood, many kit car companies have come and gone. Robin Hood has come up with many good ideas and makes good quality pieces at a reasonable cost. Most kit car buyers make changes and upgrade on their own. Upgrading quality on parts makes them MUCH more expensive and would knock many out of being able to participate in this very rewarding hobby.

We have to agree that doing business and getting customer service from this UK company can be difficult. This is where my company comes to the rescue. We STOCK what we have found to be good quality and work for our needs here in the USA. We are using a combination of our own manufacturing and sourcing from the UK. We are offering kits and parts to appeal to the most cost conscience builder and those looking for quick results(checkbook builders)

Jim Chamberlain

COVELAND MOTORSPORTS, INC.

www.coveland.com"

It seems from the above that they too have/had reservations about the Lightweight as thay have strengthened their build places they felt were "questionable"

The latest threads on RHOCAR are still reporting a lack of formal responce from the factory and builders/customers not being able to get through though it seems some have talked to the technical helpline and have been (in effect) told not to worry as it'll all be sorted soon.

Robin Hood's website has also gone down at this time too though this is not an indication that anything's wrong but is seems a bit odd though with all that's going on at the moment.

Chaz.

[Paul M]

Points made by the American agent are generally fair, as long as RH point out to all potential purchasers/builders that the car needs significant modification to its structural integrity to make it roadworthy.

A cynical approach might be to think that as so many kit car companies that change hands quickly go ti*ts up, the new owners may have seen a huge lawsuit/compensation claim looming and pulled the plug.

Just what a cynic may think and in no way reflects my views or those of the WSCC.

[Martin Keene]

Robin Hood's website has also gone down at this time too though this is not an indication that anything's wrong but is seems a bit odd though with all that's going on at the moment.

Very odd... As it appears to have been suspended by the host and not just down/unavailable/etc.

[Westy from the grave]

About four years ago i was renting my Westie to a company at Goodwood as a fast ride car. Unfortunately we had a punter who thought the loud pedal was the brake...... The car went straight on approaching Woodcote corner at around 110 mph, skipped across the gravel trap (speed not reduced much) and slammed into the tyre wall mostly on the front left.

The instructor and the passenger both jumped out unaided and undamaged. The chassis had done what it was supposed to ...crumple.. but not collapse.

The point being, looking at those photo's where would you put your money... i mean pop rivetted belt mounts i ask you!! Good on the SVA for saying NO... RH RIP

epilogue: Company at Goodwood went bust 1 week after accident, i picked up the pieces. Still it will emerge bigger and better.....

[Thrustyjust]

Those pics kinda make my point really Chris.

Where did tht info come from Thrustyjust?

Chaz.

Chaz,

 it was written on the RHOCAR site on the thread on the car.

[Thrustyjust]

Those piccies are scary.How they are expecting the diff to be structurally supported on a couple of bits of 2 mm thick ali and thsoe horizontal struts are the wishbone location points.......It loos like it has no back bone between the cockpit backwards..........

[chazpowerslide]

Ah, that's where I read it.

Chaz.