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20XE Throttle bodies/ECU options


Glen_I
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On 16/09/2021 at 07:19, Crash test dummy said:

I've not used bike TBs myself and I can't understand his dislike of them but Dave Walker (Emerald) doesn't have a good word to say about them on car engines. I think he finds them difficult to set up on idle and initial throttle opening but I'd have thought that shouldn't be an insurmountable problem.

My car (Zetec) was recently mapped at Daytuner and he explained that bike throttle bodies have the injectors set at a more acute angle to suit the “downdraught” design of modern bike engines. So on a car setup this makes them spray fuel onto the side of the inlet rather than directly into it and onto the valves (as it does on a bike)
 

They also have a more sensitive actuation which is designed to be controlled by delicate fingers rather than a size 10 boot.

 

So this does make them more difficult to set up especially at low throttle openings. 
 

However, despite Damian saying he didn’t like bike ITBs on cars, he was amazed at the results my setup produced (so was I 😁👍)

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8 hours ago, Crash test dummy said:

I've used the QED DTH throttle bodies (made by Jenvey BTW) a number of times on engines in various states of tune and they perform very, very well

@Crash test dummy as you have used these several times before did you notice any issues regarding the cooling side of things if you didn't use the coolant bypass on the underside? 

 

Is this something I'm worrying about for no real reason? My setup never suffered any cooling issues with it plumbed up using the bypass but as I have only ever used it setup like this I have nothing to compare too??

 

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2 hours ago, Glen_I said:

@Crash test dummy as you have used these several times before did you notice any issues regarding the cooling side of things if you didn't use the coolant bypass on the underside? 

 

Is this something I'm worrying about for no real reason? My setup never suffered any cooling issues with it plumbed up using the bypass but as I have only ever used it setup like this I have nothing to compare too??

 

On every XE that I've done (a few) I've only ever used a very basic cooling set up. I blank off everything, run from the pump to the bottom of the rad, the top of the rad is fed from the thermostat housing, I have a bleed from the top hose to an expansion vessel that is pressurised but has a blow off rad cap (see Rover SD1). To fill the system I have a port with a cap welded into the top hose.

 

You might just be able to make it out from this pic. Sorry about the resolution.

 

 

Simpsons1.jpg

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That's fine then, only difference I can see with my setup is that I had a hose coming of the top off the inlet manifold which would feed to the expansion tank which is in the usual place on the scuttle. 

 

I was thinking that if it were such an issue then the throttle bodies would have the provision for the outlet, I know SBD do but even the elbow to connect it to lower hose is an option otherwise its blanked off with a plate.

 

That's put my mind at rest with this saga then!

 

Thanks for the pic and yes, I gathered you have built  a few XE's 👍

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Quick update: 

 

Just been on phone to QED and they say the S40 ECU will be replaced for the later T2 type with the relevant loom to match. 

 

The fuel rail can come with -6 fittings (website only listed push fittings) which will match everything on my build so far.

 

And finally, the coolant bypass outlet is drilled from the inside so minimal work needed if I were to run into coolant problems later on, but reading what others have said I think I'm safe with this.

 

99% sure this is what I will go for, I figured it comes as a kit and if I have issues it's just QED to deal with as opposed to everyone blaming the next person if I sourced parts individually.

 

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I think you're doing the right thing.  When I fitted the XE in 2005 with bike TBs and Megasquirt it was 'ok'.  Later went for parallel Jenveys on a horizontal DCOE manifold that I had lying around.  That was ok for a few years but the engine never made the sort of power the spec suggested.  I then gave it a light refresh and fitted a straight inlet manifold and finally got what I expected.  Was sorely tempted by those QED DTH jobbies though.  Also, after years of push-on fuel connections to the fuel rail I stumped up for one with -6 fittings.  So much better when it comes to taking things apart.

Two other things in favour of the DTH or straight manifold as opposed to the horizontal/carb layout:  with the ITBs tilted up there is better access to the throttle mechanism underneath,  secondly, the bonnet cutout will retain material along the bottom edge plus that return, so the structural integrity is better.   If you have a bonnet exit exhaust like I do, and the lower, horizontal TBs the cutouts cut through to the bottom of the bonnet both sides and it becomes very floppy.

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1 hour ago, Howard said:

I think you're doing the right thing.  When I fitted the XE in 2005 with bike TBs and Megasquirt it was 'ok'.  Later went for parallel Jenveys on a horizontal DCOE manifold that I had lying around.  That was ok for a few years but the engine never made the sort of power the spec suggested.  I then gave it a light refresh and fitted a straight inlet manifold and finally got what I expected.  Was sorely tempted by those QED DTH jobbies though.  Also, after years of push-on fuel connections to the fuel rail I stumped up for one with -6 fittings.  So much better when it comes to taking things apart.

Two other things in favour of the DTH or straight manifold as opposed to the horizontal/carb layout:  with the ITBs tilted up there is better access to the throttle mechanism underneath,  secondly, the bonnet cutout will retain material along the bottom edge plus that return, so the structural integrity is better.   If you have a bonnet exit exhaust like I do, and the lower, horizontal TBs the cutouts cut through to the bottom of the bonnet both sides and it becomes very floppy.

Thanks Howard, That's reassuring that I may have made a good decision.

 

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Just to put my 2 pence in. Speak with your local RR tuner and see what ECUs they can work with. I have learned by mistake... I have an MBE ECU but there is nobody within a 2hr drive of me that will work with MBE products. I'm now hiring a RR with operator, 5 mins from home, and mapping the ignition myself. The MBE ECU is a fantastic product, but I feel it lacks the technical community support that you get with something like OMEX, Emerald etc.

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That's a valid point,  I have no preference or anyone on my doorstep so I will travel to Northampton Motorsport who will map DTA. 👍

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Spoke to QED over the phone regarding a couple off questions and the QED direct to head throttle bodies, -6 fuel rail, 120mm trumpets, throttle linkage and with the later DTA T2 ECU and loom is now ordered!!!

 

Hoping to see it all next week, they said there is a slight delay but isn't there with everything now it seems..... 

 

 

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The new DTA T series have had a huge amount of time and development put into them, and are a really good step forward from the previous S Series, which in their turn were superb ECU’s in their market segments.

 

There’s also really good on line support for the DTA product, should you ever wish to delve deeper. (And Alex, the company owner, is very helpful on the DTA forum)

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4 minutes ago, Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Secretary said:

The new DTA T series have had a huge amount of time and development put into them, and are a really good step forward from the previous S Series, which in their turn were superb ECU’s in their market segments.

 

There’s also really good on line support for the DTA product, should you ever wish to delve deeper. (And Alex, the company owner, is very helpful on the DTA forum)

That's good to hear Dave, and after much trawling the Internet I couldn't find anything negative...I was a little weary as the S series was proven and with the T series being fairly new I always worry about 'teething issues'.

 

I'm sure it will be fine and I had a good look on the DTA forum and as you say it's certainly not lacking support 👍

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Look what the lovely person from DHL dropped off today!!!

 

Oh happy days.........😃

20211001_204535.thumb.jpg.c330483aa17f769ec155fb4b18b4fec0.jpg

 

20211001_204542.thumb.jpg.d125da428e16bc85322493fc6b57b0ae.jpg

 

20211001_204521.thumb.jpg.bd10a6bcfa5f5ba096085ce433217b5e.jpg

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And.....I completely forgot I ordered this, finally found a bargain on ebay assuming it's the real McCoy and not going to disentergrate into orbit!!!

 

Allegedly organic but I'm not going to taste it🙈

1633118913601410771806417302316.jpg

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