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Mega S2000S; improving charge cooling! Intercooler/chargecooler and piping questions and tests!


Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Secretary
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I've split this of of my (re)build thread, as it's quite a specialised diversion from the norm.

 

It's also an area, that despite having had a number of turbo'd cars over the years, I've never really done anything other than basic chip tuning, with, before.

 

A quick summary; as expected really, the stock intercooler setup in the S2000S is poor at best. And while it holds the "system" back, it kind of doesn't hold it back enough for, it seems, anyone to have tried to do much with it. Certainly, I've seen nothing on here, really...

 

Now, I'm not looking at making a system for the drag strip here, just something that works well enough to justify the weight of carrying it round! (And won't shorten the life of the components around it, in particular the Rotrex compressor and the engine! Big power gains aren't the target, just reduced temperatures, where and if possible.

 

With the stock IC, it's position is a real issue; airflow through it is fairly poor, it appears, and it's prone to heat soak from the cooling system beneath.

 

image.png

 

I started this topic in the other thread, with a view to trying to improve as much as possible, the basic set up, as one of the things I was told from day one of the planned SC upgrade, was that the Sport Turbo/Sport 250 IC/Radiator sandwich didn't work on the S2000S.

 

However, an opportunity to actually test this setup, without having to buy a new Radtec cooler/radiator package came up..

 

So, courtesy of @Adge Cutler- Dorset AO, this arrived this afternoon:

 

Sport 250IC.jpg

 

There's quite a pipe dia. mismatch on the IC, so will need to sort out some adapting pipe/hose work, over the next few weeks. Be very interested to see the differences.

 

For ref, the in/out pipes on the Sport 250 IC are roughly 50mm diameter, while a very rough quick measure of what I could get to on the Honda, suggests a 65mm inlet from the Rotrex, with a roughly 70mm outlet to the throttle body.

 

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OK, so I must admit, despite having had turbo cars over the years, I've never played around with modifying them, other than the odd re-map!

 

So, still feeling my way with why certain things are done the way they are!

 

This is the supercharger to intercooler pipe design as supplied, it tapers up, from the outlet size of the Rotrex, to roughly 65mm diameter, where it enters the intercooler.

 

image.png

 

While the IC will use a stock, off-the-peg core, it's entirely fabricated for the Westfield.

 

image.png

 

So that larger pipe cross section where it enters the cooler, is not accidental, nor is to combine an IC off one vehicle, with the supercharger off another.

 

The outlet pipe on the other hand, is around 70mm diameter.

 

image.png

 

In this case, that matches quite nicely with the OD of the Honda throttle body, so that makes sense.

 

I guess the main question, is two-fold:

  1. is the inlet pipe diameter, the size it is, because of the outlet size.
  2. Or, are they using that expanding volume over length design, to deliberately slow the airflow of the charger, before it enters the IC?

Obviously, for testing purposes, I'll be about to b*****r all those considerations right up, as I'll have to choke the inlet outlet pipes to 50mm to match the Radtec. 

 

I had originally intended to use the fabricated output pipe from the charger, but this is now making me think it might be better to make something new, to keep the number of section (diameter) changes to a minimum.

 

Thoughts/experience welcome!

 

 

 

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From memory, I stepped up to 50mm straight out of the turbo, but this was more to do with the availability of hoses than with pure intent. The next change in size wasn't until directly before the throttle body. I think the effects would have been negligible, but I decided that the smaller the volume of the pipework, the less to fill before it hits the engine...

 

 

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  • Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Secretary changed the title to Mega S20002; improving charge cooling! Intercooler/chargecooler and piping questions and tests!

Looking at the page of Rotrex specs, it looks like it might actually have a 50mm outlet. I'm still curious about the design of the Rotrex outlet to IC inlet though, with the big, controlled, size change, from circa 50mm up to approx. 65mm on the stock system.

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Dave, I'd be more interested in the air temperature change before and after the cooler.

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15 minutes ago, MR.C said:

Dave, I'd be more interested in the air temperature change before and after the cooler.

 

Yep, those are the figures I'm using to quantify what it's doing; in the case of the "stock" version, it ranges from not that much, to wow, it heated the air up by how much!

 

First caveat, that will be constant for the moment, till the next mapping session, ALL testing is at no more than 50% throttle and less than 4000 rpm. (So no full boost).

 

On a day of ambient temperatures in the 18 to, say, mid twenties, the IC itself seemed to eventually stabilise at around 43 to 45 degrees C, given having travelled far enough at enough speed to hit a balanced stable point. At this point, depending on the load on the engine, and hence amount of boost produced, (remembering the limits, above!) At very light loads, inlet and outlet temps are near the same, with outlet a degree or two cooler, as the load rises a little/varies. Running a bit harder, within the overall limits, the greatest amount of cooling on the output would be low teens, ie if the outlet was around the 44 degree mark, inlet temps would be 56/58 degrees or so.

 

The lowest temp on a warmed up engine, for the outlet, was 43 degrees.

 

When stationary, with heat soak thrown in, the IC can easily ADD twenty plus degrees of heat to its output, compared to it's input!

 

- these are just early observations.

 

Second caveat, the Honda plenum/air temp sender set up, is renown for heat soak issues being measured by the sender when stationary/slow moving,  so these figures though bad, are being exaggerated a little.

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Just as background, as far as I know, most if not all the S2000S factory cars, and certainly most of the conversions from Mega S2000's done so far, are on either the Omex 630 or 710 ecu's. as a result, even the ones running DASH 2 digital dashes, aren't actually displaying even basic air temperature info at the inlet manifold. In addition, I had to have my link pipe between the Rotrex and the IC modified, myself, to add a boss for a pre-IC air temp sensor, it's not stock.

 

So other than TTS perhaps using IR temp guns on the system when mapping it initially, I'm not aware of anyone running an S2000S that's actually measuring the data for this - though I'd love to find someone else that is, to compare notes with!

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  • Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Secretary changed the title to Mega S2000S; improving charge cooling! Intercooler/chargecooler and piping questions and tests!

Interesting one this, i am also looking at dropping my inlet temps which actually make about 5psi of boost difference when i havent "heat soaked" the boost pipes from the intercooler...however my main focus at the moment is avoiding my car ingesting the hot air from directly behind the radiator so next step is a cold air inlet directly into the filter.

 

I am seeing mid 40's inlet temps post intercooler (Radtech) however that is with the filter inlet air digesting air pretty much at the 43 degree-ish mark. So I'm hoping giving it some ambient to play with will make a big difference.

 

Interestingly after sitting in traffic for 5 mins the intercooler does recover from low 50's inlet to low 40's once moving so fingers crossed a cold inlet will make a huge difference...

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Yeah, I've got an idea for the cold air feed, too and hopefully that will make a difference!

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14 minutes ago, Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Secretary said:

Yeah, I've got an idea for the cold air feed, too and hopefully that will make a difference!

https://www.demon-tweeks.com/pipercross-universal-viper-induction-kit-inc-adapters-p-cvfc7000/?istCompanyId=a2904180-3a7d-4e56-b876-cf81c9512180&istFeedId=6fbc4b04-fd28-4ce1-8513-835c8f118690&istItemId=wptpqqplr&istBid=t&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIxrrM-ceX8QIVGLLtCh0tDQE0EAQYASABEgKypPD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

Got one of these coming so will report on the findings 👍

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2 hours ago, Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Secretary said:

 

Yep, those are the figures I'm using to quantify what it's doing; in the case of the "stock" version, it ranges from not that much, to wow, it heated the air up by how much!

 

First caveat, that will be constant for the moment, till the next mapping session, ALL testing is at no more than 50% throttle and less than 4000 rpm. (So no full boost).

 

On a day of ambient temperatures in the 18 to, say, mid twenties, the IC itself seemed to eventually stabilise at around 43 to 45 degrees C, given having travelled far enough at enough speed to hit a balanced stable point. At this point, depending on the load on the engine, and hence amount of boost produced, (remembering the limits, above!) At very light loads, inlet and outlet temps are near the same, with outlet a degree or two cooler, as the load rises a little/varies. Running a bit harder, within the overall limits, the greatest amount of cooling on the output would be low teens, ie if the outlet was around the 44 degree mark, inlet temps would be 56/58 degrees or so.

 

The lowest temp on a warmed up engine, for the outlet, was 43 degrees.

 

When stationary, with heat soak thrown in, the IC can easily ADD twenty plus degrees of heat to its output, compared to it's input!

 

- these are just early observations.

 

Second caveat, the Honda plenum/air temp sender set up, is renown for heat soak issues being measured by the sender when stationary/slow moving,  so these figures though bad, are being exaggerated a little.

That does sound rather poor. Generously calling it 25C ambient with an IC inlet of 57 and outlet of 44 would give you an effectiveness of  (convert to K) (330-317)/(330-298) = 0.41. I'd be much happier seeing >60-70% effectiveness with a bit of road speed - otherwise I think you'll be pretty hot when the inlet is very much over 100C

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Just had a quick test; my old air filter and elbow pipe, from the pre- throttle body days, is the same bore as the pipework to the Rotrex. (Though it's too long at the moment!)

 

image.png

 

However, this is it, test assembled, to see what needs tweaking. apart from shortening the riser part of the elbow a bit, it puts the filter exactly where I want it - in the area under the rear bonnet opening.

 

I already divide off the other side for the heater intake, and it gets loads of cool outside air forced in at speed, from the high pressure zone sat in front of the windscreen, this should be the same.

 

It's an old photo from the ITB days, but this gives an idea of how the heater is divided off from the engine bay..

 

image.png

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Agreed Mike, I expected it to be poor, but how poor it could get, was another matter!

 

I'm hoping to tackle it on all fronts, really; more air through the IC, more protection of the IC from ambient heat, (if it stays where it is), and reduce the temps of the charge before it gets compressed and heated.

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5 hours ago, Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Secretary said:

Looking at the page of Rotrex specs, it looks like it might actually have a 50mm outlet. I'm still curious about the design of the Rotrex outlet to IC inlet though, with the big, controlled, size change, from circa 50mm up to approx. 65mm on the stock system.

 

I would say your current pipework sizing is exactly that, just changing from rotrex output to engine intake in a controlled or convenient way. Not much room for playing around there with the radtec, 50mm is about your lot:

p7020009_s.jpg

 

 

What was the intention with the current setup? Does air 'bleed' (for the want of a better word) from the top of the radiator to go down through the intercooler?

 

I wonder how much of a challenge it will be when you consider the sheer volume of air a forced induction S2000 swallows compared to use diesel-rev like folk

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3 minutes ago, Dommo said:

 

I would say your current pipework sizing is exactly that, just changing from rotrex output to engine intake in a controlled or convenient way. Not much room for playing around there with the radtec, 50mm is about your lot:

p7020009_s.jpg

 

 

What was the intention with the current setup? Does air 'bleed' (for the want of a better word) from the top of the radiator to go down through the intercooler?

 

I wonder how much of a challenge it will be when you consider the sheer volume of air a forced induction S2000 swallows compared to use diesel-rev like folk


All good points, Dommo, that’s why, although I’m interested to see what it does, I’m still attacking it on other fronts, too. 

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