Wavey Posted October 6, 2020 Share Posted October 6, 2020 With my IVA looming in just over 2 weeks, I've discovered my rear wheels lock-up before the fronts 😕 I have Sierra uprights with HiSpec Ultralite 4 callipers. I'm assuming 50/50 braking between the front and back - backs locking first because of the weight at the front . . .  I need a valve that is non-adjustable for IVA. I've read a few of the kit-car forums and the Fiesta one looks like it will do the job. Ebay has a few:-  https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Genuine-Ford-Focus-C-Max-Fiesta-MK5-Front-Brake-Pressure-Reducing-Valve-1469610/272376228296?epid=1509753686&hash=item3f6ae369c8:g:3pwAAOSwEtRb4q5T  But I would like to following any recommendations /experiences from club members - and the best location for fitting on a Westfield.  Would really appreciate any help . . .  David.  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rush Motorsport Posted October 6, 2020 Share Posted October 6, 2020 Can you get away with less good pads on the back? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Two7 Posted October 8, 2020 Share Posted October 8, 2020 I have the same problem with a Westfield complete kit ( golf Hispec rears), got a retest at the end of the month as my rears locked up in the test and that was the only fault.  The factory suggest, bed in the fronts and fit brand new pads to the rear then take on a trailer to the IVA.  Westfield say rear brakes bed in faster than fronts because they are smaller.  Speaking to Hispec they claim this is news to them, never heard of rears locking up before fronts. My IVA tester said it was a well known problem with the current westfields and was the most common fail at the moment. Just spent £26 on some EBC pads for rear.    Factory advised against the fiesta pressure reducer, if you can find one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve (sdh2903) Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 17 hours ago, Two7 said:  The factory suggest......  Which is just a total bodge. Whatever you do when your car is roadworthy and everything's bedded in please check its still not happening as if you have to hit the brakes hard on a twisty country lane the last thing you need is your A*** overtaking you. It won't end well. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Taylor Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 I’ve used the Mazda proportioning valve on the last 2 builds and the brakes have been spot on. like Steve says it’s more than just fixing for the day as the rears will bed in and bite when you least expect it and at the most inconvenient moment Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Kinder (Bagpuss) - Joint Peak District AO Posted October 10, 2020 Share Posted October 10, 2020 Just to add some more facts to this topic. If you've got the same pad compound front and rear with the factory provided Hispecs and the factory master cylinder, I'm struggling to understand what's been observed by several members at IVA.  I trailed to IVA and had only done a brief (<5 mile ) road test prior to IVA.  Here's my IVA Brake test results:   These results show a higher pedal pressure was required to lock the rears than the fronts  Given the front callipers are 4 pot and have a bigger pad and disc, I fail to see how the back brakes can lock before the fronts, with the rears being two pot with a smaller pad and disc size. The Master cylinder isn't a 50:50 split either, so it just shouldn't happen!  Also, I've done >17,000 miles in 4 years with this brake set up and haven't been overtaken by my own back end when braking !  I've only built and IVA'd one Westfield so can't argue with the factories advice either, they've clearly built and IVA'd lots of cars!  Discuss....................... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve (sdh2903) Posted October 10, 2020 Share Posted October 10, 2020 Ian your asking a question that only the factory can really answer and just because its not happened to you doesn't mean its not happening. This isn't an isolated case. The factory advice worries me as its a way to pass on the day and not ensuring a safety critical system is performing as it should. I have never heard anyone ever say 'don't bed in the brakes' before a brake test.  My thoughts for what they're worth.  I think the standard issue master cylinder has changed, when I don't know but the standard cylinder used to be a girling one like this and I believe was somewhere around 18mm bore   Now its a bigger bore one and seems to be an AP item. Could it be this is no longer a 60/40 split? As I believe AP don't use a bias split on the 'upgrade' AP cylinder.   Secondly, the hispec rear calipers are available in 4 piston sizes. If you still have your set @Ian Kinder (Bagpuss) - Joint Peak District AO measure what size they are and maybe someone who has the current issue could measure theirs to see if hispec/Westfield are now supplying items with larger pistons fitted which would give a greater pedal movement and greater clamping force at the rears.  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Kinder (Bagpuss) - Joint Peak District AO Posted October 10, 2020 Share Posted October 10, 2020 Hi Steve,  Yes, the factory could/should know unless they've had a supplier change without being told!  Even with a 50:50 MC, I'd still expect the fronts to lock first:  Fronts have this choice   With the pad area-  Rear's have this choice:    Using- http://www.brakepower.com/help_abc_27_PAC_t.htm  Worse case would be with 27.3mm diameter pistons in the front with 38mm pistons in the rear with a 50:50 spilt  Front axle (worse case)  Rear axle (worse case)  So the rear piston total area is 96.7% of the fronts. Very close!  I was told in Feb- that my pistons should be:  4x34mm front  2x38mm rear  Hence my fronts should be:   which then gives the rear total piston area at 62% of the front.  You'll note the great tool doesn't ask for pad surface area as this doesn't actually impact stopping power, it purely assists with heat dissipation and wear rate. The piston surface area is what's applying the braking force to the discs via the pads. Hence the difference in pad surface area front to rear can be ignored for this discussion.  Putting my IVA figures and the worse case front piston sizes into the tool give  (I've not entered these- )  and left them at default as I don't know what they are in a Westfield.     Which suggests a bias away from the 50:50.  Changing the figures to what I believe I've got, shows:   As tool is for sizing the MC, I'm not too sure what to make of the results, though  My Hispec rear piston diameter is 38MM (added 18-10-2020).     Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve (sdh2903) Posted October 10, 2020 Share Posted October 10, 2020 Interesting calculations there Ian.  Id thought the rear pistons should have been smaller but after checking the golf ones are 38. And the hi spec can't go any bigger so rules that one out.  23 minutes ago, Ian Kinder (Bagpuss) - Joint Peak District AO said: Yes, the factory could/should know unless they've had a supplier change without being told!  The very fact that they have a 'procedure' to get around it would hint that this is an issue that they fully know about already.   Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Kinder (Bagpuss) - Joint Peak District AO Posted October 11, 2020 Share Posted October 11, 2020 20 hours ago, Steve (sdh2903) said: Interesting calculations there Ian.  Id thought the rear pistons should have been smaller but after checking the golf ones are 38. And the hi spec can't go any bigger so rules that one out.  If I recall, there is a choice of piston sizes on the golf rear, however I went for the 38mm. Given the brakepower.com tool suggests:  One sliding calliper piston is equal to two fixed callipers pistons of the same size-   I've not noticed any reducing in braking since swapping to the golf rears.  20 hours ago, Steve (sdh2903) said: The very fact that they have a 'procedure' to get around it would hint that this is an issue that they fully know about already.  Yep. Won't we don't know is how much research they've done behind this advice. i.e. Have the checked piston sizes and master cylinder ratio's or just advised to bed fronts in only as a 'quick and dirty' solution.  I'm with you and I'd want confidence in what brake split I'd actually got.  @Two7 given you've plan to fit new rear pads. Can you measure you rear piston diameters and let us know. I'd also strongly suggest you measure the fronts too.  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Two7 Posted October 12, 2020 Share Posted October 12, 2020 Thanks for all the thought people are putting in to this. I am currently trying to bed in the fronts on the little bit of access road in front of my house ( it is a roundabout so I can get up to about 15 mph and hit the brakes), still locking rears some of the time, but perhaps not as often, hopefully I won't hack off my neighbours too much. After a session of say 5 brakes, the rears are hotter than the fronts but that may be down to size of pad / disc etc.  Hope to take it to a local MOT garage ( braking lots on the way ), to see if my brake numbers have changed since the IVA see below.  I have attached a copy of my IVA brake test that mimics the MOT brake test, I trust this one as it comes out the machine and no adjustment for weights etc.  If I can see positive changes in the brake numbers at the MOT garage and I can avoid 20 mph rear lock ups I will believe the WF story that it is down to pads bedding in faster at the rear and it just needs time.  If there is no real improvement ,   I will try and measure the pistons when I change the pads, probably do that at a little garage near the IVA test centre on the day so they have virtually no bedding in, which feels wrong but not as wrong as WD40.  I kind of feel this is a catch 22 / chicken and egg test.  The brakes will be fine for the test and real life once bedded in, trouble is you can't bed them in properly prior to an IVA.  I take the IVA guys point of view, for a car this light, Drums on the rear are all you need.  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Two7 Posted October 12, 2020 Share Posted October 12, 2020 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Two7 Posted October 12, 2020 Share Posted October 12, 2020 Just in case anybody notices, I have balanced up the parking brake, it passed the IVA, but I wasn't happy, I found the setscrew on the handbrake caliper arm was too long and stopping the NS outer pad from engaging fully. Simple fix, plan to get that checked at MOT station as well.  1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Kinder (Bagpuss) - Joint Peak District AO Posted October 12, 2020 Share Posted October 12, 2020 1 hour ago, Two7 said: Thanks for all the thought people are putting in to this. I am currently trying to bed in the fronts on the little bit of access road in front of my house ( it is a roundabout so I can get up to about 15 mph and hit the brakes), still locking rears some of the time, but perhaps not as often, hopefully I won't hack off my neighbours too much. After a session of say 5 brakes, the rears are hotter than the fronts but that may be down to size of pad / disc etc.  Hope to take it to a local MOT garage ( braking lots on the way ), to see if my brake numbers have changed since the IVA see below.  I have attached a copy of my IVA brake test that mimics the MOT brake test, I trust this one as it comes out the machine and no adjustment for weights etc.  If I can see positive changes in the brake numbers at the MOT garage and I can avoid 20 mph rear lock ups I will believe the WF story that it is down to pads bedding in faster at the rear and it just needs time.  If there is no real improvement ,   I will try and measure the pistons when I change the pads, probably do that at a little garage near the IVA test centre on the day so they have virtually no bedding in, which feels wrong but not as wrong as WD40.  I kind of feel this is a catch 22 / chicken and egg test.  The brakes will be fine for the test and real life once bedded in, trouble is you can't bed them in properly prior to an IVA.  I take the IVA guys point of view, for a car this light, Drums on the rear are all you need.    It still doesn't sound right! What if you have to hit the brakes hard >15mph on the way to your MOT garage and end up backwards into a wall etc.  As said before I gave mine a 5-6 mile road test before IVA just to check the car I'd built actually drove! I didn't focus to much on the brakes, but certainly don't recall any rear lock up at any speed!  I'd be checking piston sizes front & rear before driving it again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve (sdh2903) Posted October 12, 2020 Share Posted October 12, 2020 As Ian says still doesn’t seem right, Have you tried re-bleeding the fronts? A bit of air in the front line could be the culprit. Try jacking the car up whilst doing it.  another one is to press the brake pedal hard and wedge it hard overnight with a piece of wood then rebleed the next morning.  if there’s no air in the system then i still reckon there’s an issue with either a component or spec of the brakes, 1 because the factory sound as though they know things are marginal and 2 if the Iva tester is suggesting it’s a common fail.  another option is to fit an uprated pad in the front to improve the fronts, something like mintex  1144 or ds2500. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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