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Ortekk

XI with an R1 bike engine

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Chris King - Webmaster
4 minutes ago, Ortekk said:

would like to show some pictures, but my phone doesn't seem to be capable of making photos small enough to let me post them...

That’s because as a “free trial” member you have limited posting rights. Should you choose to join us as a full member, amongst other benefits, you get the ability to upload decent sized images and have loads of storage space for them too 👍

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Ortekk
3 minutes ago, Chris King - Webmaster and Joint North East AO said:

That’s because as a “free trial” member you have limited posting rights. Should you choose to join us as a full member, amongst other benefits, you get the ability to upload decent sized images and have loads of storage space for them too 👍

Ah!

I'll look into that :)

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Ortekk

20200610_152724.thumb.jpg.794a09eb8399708081ecd60f2556cb67.jpgThis is where the engine will sit, the sump is flush with the gearbox hoop, even though it looks a lot lower!
The silvery cookiebox thingy is actually the Oil cooler! It's cooled with the coolant, so it warms up nice and quickly, and stays (hopefully) below 100c.
The starter motor is basically built into the engine block, the generator acts as a flywheel! The ancillaries don't take up any space at all which is very helpful.

20200618_203212.thumb.jpg.271c0df66da690cafaf318096566f007.jpg

 

The engine is actually quite small considering that it has a gearbox mounted on the side, though quite tall... 


20200618_204208.thumb.jpg.44d9a302206bd1f96800a03203091544.jpgThe driveshaft is offset, and this causes me some headaches because the angles will need to be perfect to avoid vibrations, the drive shaft will peak at 11000rpm(!) so anything over 0.5° will most likely cause some issues down the line. Better to work on this for a few weeks and make sure that the rear axle, reverse box, and engine all play nicely!

The chassis tubing is very irritating, it looks straight, but it's not. The square tubes at the floor are angled inwards by a few degrees, and the top tube is angled inwards and down slightly. This makes it somewhat hard to place the engine straight and level, especially when you're finding this out as you try to get the engine straight...

I do know that some early BEC designs had the engine mounted at an angle to make things fit, this causes some rather unfortunate side effects that some ladies might find satisfactory ;)

 

20200618_204232.thumb.jpg.178e0adc53d719d21967aea58f4e9604.jpg
I've removed most of the old pedalbox, the engine exhaust will take a big chunk of space here, and I will need a healthy amount of isolation since the exhaust port is 13cm from my foot! 


And I had problems finding a decent set of pedals that fit the brake cylinders out of the way of the engine, so I went with a set of TIlton 600 series with a custom milled throttle instead. Almost went with a set from an old VW beetle, it's insanely compact, but far from sturdy enough. This is a rough mockup on how things will be mounted.

received_729691437800428.jpeg.55f1627cb6ea7a99e30faf6941af5a2d.jpeg

When the engine is finally mounted I'll post a proper build Diary for you guys!

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Ortekk

Quite a bit has happened since the last update :)

Engine has been in the car for a few weeks now, though I'm not completely happy with the routing of the tubing, it's not stiff enough, and the long tubes might cause cracks in the frame since the engine is hard-mounted. Though I'm happy that I managed to get the tilt of the engine just 0.1°(!) off vertical, this will help with the vibrations of the driveshaft.20200731_164347.thumb.jpg.c525d6b2c5061c67f34fd1c1cdd40ad1.jpg

Oh, and don't mind the mess, I'm renting a 6x3m2 space in a community garage, so space is at a premium.. Might be that I'm a bit lazy too... cough...
20200731_164406.thumb.jpg.318048cab184dc0557d5409398ef1e10.jpg

I've managed to get first dibs on a prototype reverse box, the box has drop gears, so I can change the gearing of the car quite quickly (claimed 20min) so I can have a decent gearing for both the road and track. Most tracks here in Sweden are rather short and twisty, so a low top speed is good to have. Hopefully I'll have the gearbox delivered sometime in August! Gearing will be between 223-283kmh, I can't reach 283kmh, but it will let me have a decent cruising gear, "only" 5500 rpm at 110kmh.
20200731_164321_(1).thumb.jpg.4c815be7e47419eb1540a3123ab0abdf.jpg
I've test-fitted the rear axle in the car, just need to properly measure everything so I nail the fitment on the first try.
I have run into something interesting though, I put the driveshafts in the axle just for fun, and they're too long. They hit in the middle, so if I mount the differential, the shafts stick out a tiny bit from the hubs. I'll take a picture of it tomorrow so you can see what I mean.
USER_SCOPED_TEMP_DATA_MSGR_PHOTO_FOR_UPLOAD_1596207092977_6694977794902696716.jpeg.7840a404e02dad3302e6729aa6f9b5dd.jpeg
I sent an email to Frontline about it, It's probably just me doing something wrong though. I'm used to rear axles on Trucks, not toy cars 😂

To road register the car in Sweden I need 3-point belts, so I'm trying to find a decent place to house the belt reel. This looked good until I fitted the differential... Will probably need to weld some additional tubing so I can mount it higher up. The reel must be mounted vertical, or it will lock, hence the cheese wedge.20200731_164616.thumb.jpg.7f6ce12ece10d5beb15cda610704d6bb.jpg

 

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robhume

Like the sound of the reverse box being able to change the ratio.

 

I think you are correct to be unhappy with the mounting of the engine the way it is.

 

I hope you don't mind but I have attached some pictures of how the R1 engine is mounted

in my non Westfield, however the chassis design is roughly similar.

 

There are two mountings welded to one of the bottom rails and the mountings either

side of the engine are bolted to a couple of brackets welded to cross chassis tubes which

are also bolted to brackets welded to the top chassis tubes either side.

Hopefully the pics will say it all.

DSC_0557.JPG

DSC_0558.JPG

DSC_0559.JPG

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Ortekk

Thanks Rob!

I think a similar mount as on your first picture is the way to go. The left hand side on my car has short stubs ~50mm in length so I'm happy with that. Though I can put some flags on the stubs to stiffen it further.

And I think the changeable ratio on the reverse box is a must, I was surprised to find out that a design like that didn't exist. And by the sounds of it, they had big problems finding someone that wanted it... Though their market was racing focused Hayabusa BECs. It might be a better fit for trackday roadgoing BECs.

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Ortekk

Turns out that my rear axle has been shortened. It's 35mm shorter than standard.

 

And the seller had no idea. Oh well..

 

So I'm on the hunt for another axle, but in the meantime I'd like to see if I can actually use this axle.

 

Given that its 35mm shorter, I can in theory mount wider tires.

 

I'm planning to use 175 at the fronts and 185 at the rear, but will I get a benefit from running wider tires at the rear?

 

I can probably fit 215, or maybe even 225.

 

I know that some cars run wider than that, and with even less weight. But would it be a benefit to run tires that wide, given that the car will be sub 500kg, and have skinny tires at the front?

 

It feels like it would understeer like an Vauxhall Vectra VXR...

 

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AdamR
19 minutes ago, Ortekk said:

It feels like it would understeer like an Vauxhall Vectra VXR...

 

 

You can balance this out with correctly selected spring (and ARB, if you have them / one) rates, so don't worry.

 

However, personally, for the sort of use it appears your car will see, I don't feel there are many upsides to huge tyres on a very light car. It's just extra weight, drag, cost, they take longer to warm up, more likely to aquaplane...

 

(I appreciate sprinting is a different thing altogether!)

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Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Secretary

You don't necessarily need wider tyres, just get rear wheels with a suitable offset to put the tyre size you want, in the position you want.

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Ortekk
6 hours ago, AdamR said:

 

You can balance this out with correctly selected spring (and ARB, if you have them / one) rates, so don't worry.

 

However, personally, for the sort of use it appears your car will see, I don't feel there are many upsides to huge tyres on a very light car. It's just extra weight, drag, cost, they take longer to warm up, more likely to aquaplane...

Pretty much what I was thinking here, I don't really need it since the weight won't load the tires enough.
And when I think about what the car might look like with a setup that loads the tire enough, it might end up looking like an RWD Rallycross car!
RX8.jpg.0710b7bb21b14db843b7ec888a0018e9.jpg

5 hours ago, Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Secretary said:

You don't necessarily need wider tyres, just get rear wheels with a suitable offset to put the tyre size you want, in the position you want.

Yeah, that might work too. I will get wheels from Force Racing for the car, so I can choose whatever sizing I want really...
But then I need to shorten the driveshafts, and that might end up costing more than a new rear axle. I got this one for £50, with shipping to Sweden... I guess I found out why! 😅

If I luck out and find a decent rear axle quickly I wont bother, but if I don't, I might offset the wheels instead.

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robhume

I have 185 front and 205 rear using r888r tyres on 6" and 7" wide wheels using the standard width rear axle.

 

The clearance at the rear is minimal to say the least as the rear clam slopes inwards just about tyre wall height.

 

 Careful choice of springs, front and rear as well as arb position is important, even more so using a much lighter bike engine.

When I used the car on hill climbs, I disconnected the arb but sprints on a track will probably be different.

 

When using the Zetec engine, similar power to the R1 but heavier, I found the tyre combination worked very well and felt 

unnecessary to go any wider.

 

 

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Ortekk

Seems like I won't gain anything from going wider then, good to know! Lets hope I find a decent rear axle :)

How is the clearance at the front with 185 tires? Will I need to limit steering further going that wide, or is there enough room?
175 are difficult to find and 185 are cheaper for me. 
 

As for the spring rates, I will do proper calculations once I get to weigh the car. I'm looking forward to see the weight distribution, BEC and LHD usually don't mix that well, hoping that putting everything I can to the right of the chassis will make enough of a difference.

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stephenh

I rather think (but I'm doing this from memory now) that the difference in rear axle width is down to whether the axle came of a Spridget with wire wheels, or one with steel disc wheels. 

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Ortekk
38 minutes ago, stephenh said:

I rather think (but I'm doing this from memory now) that the difference in rear axle width is down to whether the axle came of a Spridget with wire wheels, or one with steel disc wheels. 

The listing said steel wheels. Might have been a mistake on the seller.

 

But no need to mull over this. It's too narrow for the driveshafts I got.

And there are a few listings on ebay. So might get hold of one quite soon.

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Morris
39 minutes ago, stephenh said:

I rather think (but I'm doing this from memory now) that the difference in rear axle width is down to whether the axle came of a Spridget with wire wheels, or one with steel disc wheels. 

The axle for wire wheels is narrower from what I recall.

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