Tony Smiley Posted May 8, 2019 Share Posted May 8, 2019 Here are a couple of random comparisons of competitors who did both of the events at Anglesey so far: Car No. Driver P 1 P 2 T 1 T 2 T 3 T 4 T5 Best Anglesey International Circuit, Sunday, April 7th, 2019 144 John Wadsworth 120.73 120.70 118.79 118.78 119.76 118.49 118.49 N/R 1 49 Anglesey International Circuit, Sunday, May 5th, 2019 4 John Wadsworth 117.23 117.62 115.72 115.64 117.23 116.60 115.64 Anglesey International Circuit, Sunday, April 7th, 2019 118 Martin Rowe 103.90 103.98 104.19 104.67 104.49 104.14 103.98 Anglesey International Circuit, Sunday, May 5th, 2019 10 Martin Rowe 104.06 102.47 102.82 111.82 104.05 104.73 102.82 This data indicates to me that the track conditions were pretty much similar, so I must conclude that using the times recorded by the WSCC entrants on the day to determine if the track conditions were "unfavourable" does not stand up to scrutiny? Tony 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Everall Posted May 8, 2019 Share Posted May 8, 2019 d) Below Target Time Conditions Rule: If conditions at a round are such that 61% or more of the Westfield car classes’ entry have times which are 110% or more of the target times, then the individual competitor who scores the second highest percentage to their class Target will be given 100 Points. All other Westfield class Targets Times will then be adjusted by the same percentage set by that competitor and scores will be calculated as 1.6b & 1.6c. It is not easy to sort out this issue particularly when there are only 2 drivers there. The rule was changed from"WET DAY" to the wording above a few years ago as it was hard to determine whether Rain was the same as Damp. Cold tracks/tarmac have always been a problem. The same situation happened at Wiscombe I think Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Smiley Posted May 8, 2019 Share Posted May 8, 2019 2 minutes ago, Terry Everall - WSCC Competition Secretary said: d) Below Target Time Conditions Rule: If conditions at a round are such that 61% or more of the Westfield car classes’ entry have times which are 110% or more of the target times, then the individual competitor who scores the second highest percentage to their class Target will be given 100 Points. All other Westfield class Targets Times will then be adjusted by the same percentage set by that competitor and scores will be calculated as 1.6b & 1.6c. It is not easy to sort out this issue particularly when there are only 2 drivers there. The rule was changed from"WET DAY" to the wording above a few years ago as it was hard to determine whether Rain was the same as Damp. Cold tracks/tarmac have always been a problem. I'm sorry Terry, but this rule is clearly intended to make adjustments to the target time when the track conditions are not "ideal". There was clearly nothing untoward about the track that impacted on the times recorded, and it should therefore not be applied in this case. Tony 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonRad Posted May 8, 2019 Share Posted May 8, 2019 It’s definitely made me think about what championship to concentrate on 🙁 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephenh Posted May 8, 2019 Share Posted May 8, 2019 Tony, Rule 1.6.(d) makes no reference to the TRACK (my emphasis) just to CONDITIONS. If only 2 competitors chose to turn up to a round of the championship then so be it. If one (or both) happen to be novices, or in uncompetitive cars, that is the conditions under which they run. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Everall Posted May 8, 2019 Share Posted May 8, 2019 The system is not perfect but has been developed over a number years and tries cover most situations. Stephen Herbert has summarised thing well and if only a few cars turn up and do not go very quickly against TT, for whatever reason, then Rule 1.6d applies. If quite a few people attend events then this situation may well not happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graham frankland Posted May 8, 2019 Share Posted May 8, 2019 41 minutes ago, stephenh said: Tony, Rule 1.6.(d) makes no reference to the TRACK (my emphasis) just to CONDITIONS. If only 2 competitors chose to turn up to a round of the championship then so be it. If one (or both) happen to be novices, or in uncompetitive cars, that is the conditions under which they run. Well said Stephen These guy's should be supported for turning out! I am sure they will have done there best to get near to the target times! Look at the fight I had with Mark B at Wiscombe 2 weels ago! I was out in the cold at MIRA on Sat and everyone was querying what had happened to the times on the day!" No one esle turned up at Angelsey to give it a go so well done to the 2 that did ! Glutey 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonRad Posted May 8, 2019 Share Posted May 8, 2019 Still seems unfair when a few weeks ago, at my first speed series weekend and first events at Anglesey, I pushed myself and car hard enough to beat the Longton class record, but could of scored more points last weekend in the same CONDITIONS by going slower. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Smiley Posted May 9, 2019 Share Posted May 9, 2019 So, you are clearly maintaining the assertion that the times of someone who has never driven the track before and a competitor that is having clutch problems should invoke the “conditions” that make this rule applicable? Absolutely ridiculous. We all have issues at meetings and generally everybody tries to help out, but this rule is clearly (although, perhaps not to some) meant to apply to the track conditions regarding whether wet or hazardous, etc., that would effect all of the competitors, NOT the individuals "personal reasons" for going slower than the TTs. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark.anson Posted May 9, 2019 Share Posted May 9, 2019 17 hours ago, AdamR said: More than 60% of drivers obtaining a best time that is more than 10% slower than target time. Then it is deemed to be a 'wet' event, 1.6d rule. Or, as seems to be pretty common this season so far, people just being really slow in the dry, triggering a 'wet' event. A bit odd that you can score maximum points by being so far off target times, but there we go 😁 Perhaps a tweak for next season might be a minimum number of entries at the round before 1.6d can come into play? 5? Therefore 3 at least have to be over the 10% over. Not a bad suggestion Adam. Certainly one to consider for next year. The rule was introduced so in the event the competition was affected by poor conditions then folk could still score reasonable points. Important if you can only do 10 events of less in a season. Clearly though if the event is poorly attended this can also trigger the scenario we have here so it’s certainly something we need to look at. I don’t know what if anything we can do this year as the regs are published and approved my MUK but it’s being discussed by the SSOT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Smiley Posted May 9, 2019 Share Posted May 9, 2019 1 minute ago, mark.anson said: Not a bad suggestion Adam. Certainly one to consider for next year. The rule was introduced so in the event the competition was affected by poor conditions then folk could still score reasonable points. Important if you can only do 10 events of less in a season. Clearly though if the event is poorly attended this can also trigger the scenario we have here. And poor conditions refer to what? the track, or your clutch?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Smiley Posted May 9, 2019 Share Posted May 9, 2019 2 hours ago, Terry Everall - WSCC Competition Secretary said: The system is not perfect but has been developed over a number years and tries cover most situations. Stephen Herbert has summarised thing well and if only a few cars turn up and do not go very quickly against TT, for whatever reason, then Rule 1.6d applies. If quite a few people attend events then this situation may well not happen. So it is everybody else's fault for not turning up to the event - ah, got it now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark.anson Posted May 9, 2019 Share Posted May 9, 2019 14 hours ago, S2T said: . My objective was to improve my PERSONAL times throughout each day, which I achieved so was quite happy. As it was I came away with 2 class wins and best novice driver overall. Thanks for the welcome to your Series Exactly the right attitude too. Improving your personal times should always be the objective when your new to the sport. The more seat time you get and the more you learn the circuits the quicker you will get. Given the same conditions, the next time you go to Anglesey your will improve your times by a decent amount as you will know the circuit and what to expect. The issue of the target time scoring system has raged on since its introduction in 2009. We all know it’s not a perfect system, but none of them are. The SSOT reviewed a few different scoring systems a couple of years ago and all had their advantages and disadvantages. Certainly every scenario cannot be catered for and ( somewhat reluctantly ) we had to concede the TT system was the best overall of the alternatives we looked at. All systems had their issues especially where there was only one or two people in a class. The SSOT also looked at reducing the number of rounds available in the championship with a view to getting more people at events on the day, however that was met by opposition by some who wanted more choice. The number of events has remained high to give more choice but that also tends to dilute attendance at some events which means there’s a higher chance of the 1.6d rule applying. Its clearly something that needs looking at and one alternative is to scrap it altogether. If it was scrapped though you could turn up at an event where it is pouring rain and you score rubbish points due to the weather and your weekend is a right off due to weather. Not ideal if you can only do 10 events. In a slightly different scenario I fell foul of this rule a few years ago at Pembrey, when the sun was cracking the flags, where three of us battling for the championship broke the TT quite substantially. The snag was that the other drivers got nowhere near it for various reasons and 1.6d kicked in. I was not happy to say the least and it probably cost me 2nd overall in the championship. The SSOT are always open to suggestions on how to improve the rules but we also have to be careful that by doing so there aren’t any unintended consequences later which makes things worse. So if anyone has any pearls of wisdom and can suggest another solution and suitable regs wording let hear it ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark.anson Posted May 9, 2019 Share Posted May 9, 2019 3 hours ago, SimonRad said: Still seems unfair when a few weeks ago, at my first speed series weekend and first events at Anglesey, I pushed myself and car hard enough to beat the Longton class record, but could of scored more points last weekend in the same CONDITIONS by going slower. I share your frustration Simon and it’s a situation that has arisen due to a poorly attended event, but the SSOT are discussing the rule anyway. Unfortunately we can’t force people to turn out to an event I only wish we could. I don’t think it’s helped that this Anglesey event came along a short time after the April event run by Longton so a few folk had already been however the decision to put it on the calendar was to try and support the MGCC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Stanton Posted May 9, 2019 Share Posted May 9, 2019 Why have two Anglesey events so close together ? ............... perhaps with the issue that has arisen with a certain scrute from LDMC ..... maybe 2020 will be easier to resolve ? than amending scoring system ............. and that is to attend events where Westfields are welcomed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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