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GaryD1971

Fuelling system?

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GaryD1971

Hi all. I'm at the stage in my build where I'm starting to look at the fuelling system and it's a bit of a mare to be honest. I dumped the 1.4 cvh in favour of an 1800 blacktop which came with the injection system but no ECU. This is not going to fit for the obvious size reasons. I can't decide whether to ditch the original injection for throttle bodies and aftermarket ecu, keep the original injection and modify the steering mechanism to allow the manifold to fit whilst fitting an aftermarket ecu, or try to fit a standard ecu to the standard injection. Bike carbs won't be an option due to the difficulty getting through the IVA emissions test. I'm also working to quite a tight budget. 

Would be interested to hear the collectives thoughts on the options available, or any that I have missed /not thought of. 

Thanks. 

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DE04*

Ditch the standard injection and put throttle bodies on. It is one of the best upgrades I have done,more power,runs a lot better and I love the noise. I put Omex ITB's and Omex ecu.

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DE04*

Also it won't interfere with the steering coloum.

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Chris King - Webmaster

For a tight budget, bike throttle bodies work just as well as dedicated ones. 

Here’s mine

D87A1CEC-3081-444D-92AC-8FB38E08FAC8.jpegABF17C69-63E6-4EAA-8898-CFCAB9F855AB.jpeg

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GaryD1971

That looks nice Chris. Which ones did you use? 

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Chris King - Webmaster

GSXR 1000 bodies on a DanST manifold. Works brilliantly (184 bhp and 175ftlb from a std 2.0 blacktop)

To save more money you can use an ST170 focus manifold and space the bodies to suit. @Ian Tolfree (tolf) - North London AO Has this set up with hayabusa itbs (I sold it to him!) and again he’s got similar results to me and Troy at NMS was well surprised I think!

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Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Secretary

As Chris said, on a budget, bike throttle bodies everytime!.

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6carjon

How to bike throttle bodies work at part throttle?

I have no experience but reading some rants from Dave Walker of Emerald he asserts that there are issues with linkages not being well implemented and with the range of opening making it difficult to manage small openings in normal driving?

I know maximum power is good but wondered in every day driving how they behave?

Curious as to why they are not used universally in kit cars if they are so cost effective compared to after market from omex, jenvey et al?

Cheers Jon

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AdamR

Why would they not work well? It's still a flat disc with a stick stuck through it :d

Not difficult to change throttle linkage to give better low opening sensitivity.

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corsechris

I did (and still do to some extent) have a minor niggle with bike TBs on the Silvertop. This is a very specific 'combination of things' problem though. Bike TBs seem to be very sensitive at nothing to very small opening angles. More so than 'car' TBs for some reason of geometry I presume. That's normally not a problem, but when I first fitted the Zetec, having previously had the same combination of ECU and ITBs on the trusty Flow, I was a bit surprised to find the problem. The symptom was popping and banging just as you touched the pedal when driving. After much messing at Emerald, Karl determined it was not anything wrong as such - no twist along the throttle shafts or linkages, no play, throttle pot fine etc etc, just due to the basic setup and very old ECU I was running on the car not having the ability to increase the effective resolution of the throttle pot at low opening angles. The then-current version ECU was easily adjusted to close up the load sites at the bottom and totally solved the issue (we did a quick ECU swap and tried it). All their current product does this, so this wouldn't now be an issue.

I stuck with the old ECU, Karl mapped most of the problem away and when I swapped the diff at a later date, it moved the 'set point' around to the extent the problem is now only a very occasional thing.

It wasn't an issue with the XFlow because that engine had lumpy cams so didn't suck very well at idle, meaning the change in airflow wasn't so big. A stock Zetec sucks like crazy, exposing the problem.

Unless you got unlucky, you probably wouldn't see this issue, but do make sure you can adjust the load sites/throttle position relationship on your chosen ECU so you can improve resolution at the very bottom end. Or don't use Alpha/N mapping of course. This problem shouldn't happen if you use a MAP sensor setup, but that tends to have it's own issues when used with ITBs.

The most common issue with bike TBs is when they are re-spaced from stock and the linkages between the TBs end up being poorly modified, allowing slop or 'skew' from one end to the other. Given the throttle pot is at the other end to the cable, this can be a problem.

If  possible, get a manifold that allows you to keep the TBs at the OEM spacing - saves loads of hassles. I did a DIY job, grafting the TBs into the stripped out carcasses of some dead DHLAs and using a carb manifold. Had to replace the fuel rail and also re-work the throttle linkages between each body.

 

Other than that one, very specific issue, they are superb. Driveability everywhere else is perfect. I used GSXR600 TBs and the wee Keihin injectors that came with them are still working just fine, and are perfectly matched to the stock 2l silver top. From memory, I think they are at about 80% flow at maximum demand.

 

A bunch of words that translate into 'do it'.

 

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Chris King - Webmaster

I beefed up the linkages as they are a weak point at small openings. They are all interconnected in a daisy chain fashion so 1 opens 2 opens 3 opens 4 so if the springs pushing down the adjusters are weak, then by the time 4 opens, 1 has been open a while and it’s 4 that controls the TPS  so the inrush of air into 1-2 tends to make it splutter. 

Mine now drives absolutely fine after beefing up though. 

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corsechris

Sadly, mine wasn’t that, as it would have been an easy fix. Seems I’d done an adequate job, for a change :) 

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Ian Tolfree (tolf) - WSCC AO Rep
10 hours ago, Chris King - Webmaster and Joint North East AO said:

GSXR 1000 bodies on a DanST manifold. Works brilliantly (184 bhp and 175ftlb from a std 2.0 blacktop)

To save more money you can use an ST170 focus manifold and space the bodies to suit. @Ian Tolfree (tolf) - North London AO Has this set up with hayabusa itbs (I sold it to him!) and again he’s got similar results to me and Troy at NMS was well surprised I think!

Yep, cant go wrong, great set up and loads of power 

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TableLeg

Gary,

With your proximity to Emerald I'd definitely suggest the K6+ Ecu. Karl is excellent at assisting with any issues and you can benefit by having them map it. Be rude not too when they're on your doorstep. I can also help to some degree with the install as the K6+ is what I have on my build.

:yes:

 

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corsechris

I’ll second that. I’ve had amazing service from Emerald over the years. First took a car to them back when they were based in Brixton. I’ve got many tales I can tell about how helpful they have been to me over the years. Never had a single problem with one of their products.

No connection, just a happy punter.

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