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jeff oakley

Latest IVA emissions proposal

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This could be the death knell for kits such as the Westfield XI which is designed very much as a replica, using an old school engine. Difficult to fit a modern engine under the bonnet because they are too tall with overhead cams, as has been discussed elsewhere on the boardroom. Also as mentioned above in relation to Chris's C type replica.

The big manufacturers find it difficult or impossible to make even 20 year old engine designs (let alone 60 + year old designs) meet Euro 6 emission limits, so I'm not convinced that it is as easy as just fitting fuel injection and a mapable ECU, along with a cat.  Of course you can make any engine run lean enough with a mapable ECU, but the internal heat will very quickly destroy the valves and pistons, as I understand it. So yes, the kit car industry does need to seek exemptions for replicas which are designed to use old engines such as the XI, and the various C and D type replicas. 

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It would be really disappointing to change from the crossflow at this stage. If this sticks will have to consider selling the crossflow set up to the classic Ford community and going modern.

Maybe the Suzuki 3 cylinder that Caterham use. Haven't looked into that at all as yet, but if it fits the Caterham sprint it has a chance of fitting the pre lit.

Going to try and get it IVA as soon as though. It will definitely be going minus screen, wipers and washer now!

P****d off of Buckingham.

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6 hours ago, stephenh said:

 

The big manufacturers find it difficult or impossible to make even 20 year old engine designs (let alone 60 + year old designs) meet Euro 6 emission limits, so I'm not convinced that it is as easy as just fitting fuel injection and a mapable ECU, along with a cat.  Of course you can make any engine run lean enough with a mapable ECU, but the internal heat will very quickly destroy the valves and pistons, as I understand it. So yes, the kit car industry does need to seek exemptions for replicas which are designed to use old engines such as the XI, and the various C and D type replicas. 

Thats why decent mappers can make a map that couldnt pull the skin off a rice pudding for emissions and then a switch for the second map for normal running and a third for high speed use on tracks. Its probably the only way to get them through. Not saying that cars should loose their cats , but at the end of the day its an internal combustion engine . Think at least people arent putting a rotary in a car for IVA !! 

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9 hours ago, stephenh said:

This could be the death knell for kits such as the Westfield XI which is designed very much as a replica, using an old school engine. Difficult to fit a modern engine under the bonnet because they are too tall with overhead cams, as has been discussed elsewhere on the boardroom. Also as mentioned above in relation to Chris's C type replica.

The big manufacturers find it difficult or impossible to make even 20 year old engine designs (let alone 60 + year old designs) meet Euro 6 emission limits, so I'm not convinced that it is as easy as just fitting fuel injection and a mapable ECU, along with a cat.  Of course you can make any engine run lean enough with a mapable ECU, but the internal heat will very quickly destroy the valves and pistons, as I understand it. So yes, the kit car industry does need to seek exemptions for replicas which are designed to use old engines such as the XI, and the various C and D type replicas. 

Stephen

the reading talks about current MOT requirements not E6 , but I agree with you this will be an issue for the classic kit which is a real shame as it potentially could destroy many small companies especially with the uncertainty 

I can't see larger kit manufactures like Westfield being too worried as generally (apart form eleven) they are using modern engines 

 

we all need to put letters or emails voicing our opinions and supporting both current and future builders, I stole this off locust site which makes most of the points and added to

1 - At best a change like this should have a reasonable lead time - say 24 months - because many people build kit cars over a reasonably long period of time - and many will have begun such projects expecting to use an engine which, under the new rules will not be allowable. 

2- The actual impact from an environmental point of view of implementing this change will be minimal. Of the relatively small number of kit cars which are being built and used on the road, many already have engine which can meet modern emissions standards. 

3 - Once registered many kit cars are used for a relatively small amount of miles each year (evidenced by the fact that many kit cars are insured on limited mileage policies), and therefore even those with engines tested to older standards will make little environmental impact in real terms. 

4- If it is deemed necessary to implement this change, a reasonably long lead time to implementation should be considered acceptable because of 2) and 3) above

5- this change in legislation would have a serious impact on the classic kit car market who are trying to reproduce a replica as close to the original as possible, the impact of these proposals could destroy business and many jobs

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@CL290005 Excellent post Chris. I'd change "minimal" impact to "negligible". Whatever policy they are trying to achieve, they are not going to get there by going after classic kits! If you want to effect a change, focus on cars selling in the millions per year, not dozens ???

It would also increase the cost and duration of an IVA, when waiting times are already weeks/months.

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I have sent this response to the e mail address 

ivs.enquiries@dft.gsi.gov.uk

if others want to copy and paste so we can get as many objections to these changes as possible

 

 

FAO Consultation Co-ordinator 

I would like to voice my annoyance as to the inconsiderate rushed proposed changes whilst I agree with the sentiment, the speed and the actual changes I believe will have a drastic effect to the classic kit car market, this industry try to recreate as close as possible to original car as possible. Inorder to meet current MOT requirements ie fuel injection, and more important Catalytic convertor would be extremely difficult on these older designs. Projects like these are undertaken by smaller numbers compared to the general kit car market, but these builders who undertake these projects invest large sums of money into these projects and the kit car market, I would like you to consider the following:-

 

1 - At best a change like this should have a reasonable lead time - say 24 months - because many people build kit cars over a reasonably long period of time - and many will have begun such projects expecting to use an engine which, under the new rules will not be allowable. 

2- The actual impact from an environmental point of view of implementing this change will be minimal. Of the relatively small number of kit cars which are being built and used on the road, many already have engine which can meet modern emissions standards. 

3 - Once registered many kit cars are used for a relatively small amount of miles each year (evidenced by the fact that many kit cars are insured on limited mileage policies), and therefore even those with engines tested to older standards will make little environmental impact in real terms. 

4- If it is deemed necessary to implement this change, a reasonably long lead time to implementation should be considered acceptable because of 2) and 3) above

5-On these style of cars I feel a more considerate stage of emissions based on teh above would be more considerate that is to legislate with fuel injection but avoid the requirement for a Catalytic convertor as this visually would have drastic effect both visually and heat dissipation on what were generally enclosed exhaust systems
 
6- this change in legislation would have a serious impact on the classic kit car market who are trying to reproduce a replica as close to the original as possible, the impact of these proposals could destroy business and many jobs.
 
 
I trust you will consider the true impact these changes will make on the kit car economy rather than just the limited emissions which you seem to be following as a blanket strategy I look forward to your response to my e mail
 
Best regards
 
Chris 

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Well done @CL290005

I added a few words in and sent as below

FAO Consultation Co-ordinator

I would like to voice my dismay at the inconsiderate proposed changes that are trying to be rushed through from consultation to policy.

Whilst I agree with the sentiment, the speed and the actual changes I believe will have a drastic effect to the classic kit car market. This industry tries very hard to recreate as kit that is as close as possible to the original car. 

In order to meet current MOT requirements as you are proposing would mean the inclusion of fuel injection and more importantly a Catalytic Convertor. This would be extremely difficult on these older designs. 

Classic Kit projects like these are undertaken by smaller numbers compared to the general kit car market, These builders who undertake these projects invest large sums of money into these projects and the kit car market and I would like you to consider the following points:-

1. A change like this must have a reasonable lead time of something like 24 months because many people build kit cars over a reasonably long period of time. Many builders will have begun their projects expecting to use an certain period engine (most likely already purchased at considerable expense) which under the new rules will not be allowable. 

2. The actual impact and benefit from an environmental point of view of implementing this change will be minimal. Of the relatively small number of kit cars which are being built and used on the road, many already have an engine which can meet modern emissions standards. 

3. Once these cars have been IVA tested and registered the majority of them are used for a relatively small amount of miles each year (evidenced by the fact that many kit cars are insured on limited mileage policies), and therefore even those with engines tested to the existing standards will make little environmental impact in real terms. 

4. If it is deemed necessary to implement this change, a reasonably long lead time to implementation has to be considered acceptable because of Items 2 and 3 above.

5. On these style of cars I feel a more lenient stage of emissions based on the above would be more considerate. That would be to legislate with fuel injection but avoid the requirement for a Catalytic convertor as this would have a drastic effect both visually and give big problems with heat dissipation on what are generally enclosed exhaust systems.

6. This change in legislation would have a serious impact on the classic kit car market which is trying to reproduce a replica as close to the original as possible. The impact of these proposals could destroy businesses and many jobs.


I trust you will consider the true impact these changes will make on the kit car economy rather than just the limited emissions which you seem to be following as a blanket strategy.

Personally this proposal will financially affect me should it go through as proposed to the tune of several thousand pounds. Considering the state of the economy, the weak value of sterling affecting materials costs and inflation, the uncertainty around Brexit and where we will sit in the European marketplace in a couple of years time, I really do not think you need to be targeting the kit car market for the minute improvement that may be achieved.

I look forward to your response to my e mail accordingly.

Regards
 

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Good letter Chris. I have responded similarly I have also had correspondence with Complete Kit Car magazine who are also responding as well.

Just for clarity, the proposal is that any car presented for IVA must meet the emissions level set at the time of presentation, so as they ratchet them down the difficulties will increase. Euro 6 is the latest that being worked on.

As I said contained within the consultation is the part where cheat devices being used to pass a test will carry big penalties. Yes you might get a car mapped that could pass, but I still doubt that, but if you got found out using multiple maps they would punish harshly.

We need more people to personally write in so circulating as wide as possible on Facebook groups is needed to protect our hobby. 

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Jeff

I agree we need as many members to sign up to this ASAP we have very limited time

 

we also need to keep this topic at the top of our viewing list so others read and react

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Would it be worth getting something out to the Facebook community, I’d have a crack but TBH I struggle with FB.  There are quite a few groups on kit cars in general that might help spread the word for support?

 

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I do think this is a bigger issue than some think and to demonstrate her is just a list of cars I think will be affected, in no order.

Westfield, Hawk Stratos, Lister Bell Stratos, Chesil Speedsters, Pilgrim Speedsters, Nostalgia Jaguars, Suffolk Jaguars, Realm Jaguars, any of the Cobra replicas not using an LS7, Merlin roadsters, any of the landrover discovery based kits, the list goes on and on.

Some would say you could build any with a modern engine, but that would be like the Mona Lisa with a tattoo not right.

The government departments who run these things are not enthusiasts. I have been involved with them in the past and at one meeting where it was clear they hadn't got a clue about cars during the discussion, I asked why they appeared to know so little. The answer was they were career civil servants, today they were in the DOT tomorrow they may be transferred to Agriculture.

They therefore appear to listen to the best lobbyists and in this case it is the environmentalist outrage over VW that is driving this forward. Government does however listen to well reasoned articulate arguments and many of the exemptions we have in the UK that allows us to build cars, have come after they changed their minds when shown a different picture.

Apathy is the greatest tool of government and people thinking it will not affect them so why bother? If we do not all act this will get through and well built cars like Gary Tippings and Stephen H 11 will be consigned to history.

I have also written to my MP as any leverage is worth having and some especially with a Kit Car company in their constituency should be on our side.

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Calling @Andy Banks - Chairman And @Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Secretary     

We know lots of our members do not use the forum.

Can this be emailed out to all the members with a standard worded response similar to the above asking each member to send an email response in please?

 

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Email sent.

" I can confirm that we have received your enquiry and will endeavour to respond within 20 working days. "

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Couple of points.

The requirement is to meet MOT test standard at point of registration, NOT current emission spec for new cars. A huge difference. I can’t believe that there will be a retrospective application of limits for cars already registered, the outcry would be significant.

Almost all Stratos reps are being built with engines that are at least Euro 2 compliant so they won’t have any trouble and are already being tested to this level at IVA. I only know of a tiny fraction (2 or 3) that use a Dino engine and I’m not aware of anyone building one now. I only mention these as I have some knowledge. The other ones mentioned may well be very different.

I recall a conversation with Dave Walker many moons ago where he was cursing CATs. He argued they have no actual benefit as a properly tuned engine can achieve the requirements without one, and they do no good at anything over idle anyway.

That said, it does look like a rather pointless exercise to include kits and classics in this roundup. I can see how it would make the administration of the IVA test a fraction simpler, but that’s about it as far as positives go. Hard to square this with the ‘no MOT for classics’ recently announced.

I’ll be adding my voice to the call as well.

 

(my current project is using a Euro 2 compliant engine from a 1999 donor, so I have some skin in the game)

 

ETA. for clarity, these are the limits from the newest proposed MOT test update scheduled to come into effect on 20th May

To pass the Basic Emissions Test, the following requirements must be met:  
Fast idle test (2500 - 3000rpm):  
CO <= 0.2%;  
HC <= 200ppm;  
Lambda between 0.97 and 1.03.  
Idle test (450 - 1500rpm):  
CO <= 0.3%.

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