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Savage Switches; double pole vs single pole


Robo

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Anyone know the advantages or disadvantages of a single pole against a double ?? Looking at buying some and I’m unsure as to what type is best. 

Cheers 

Edited by Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Secretary
Make title clearer before moving to FAQ
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Ian Kinder (Bagpuss) - Joint Peak District AO

@Robo single pole means you can only switch one circuit. e.g. Horn Double pole means two switches close simultaneously. Hence you can use one switch for sidelights with one set of contacts used to provide power to the side lights and the other set of contacts can be used to provide illumination to the back light for the switch for example. This diagram may help. elec-refridge-5_23.jpg.b86b07509ef231ff38eb03e5f2590b96.jpg

Double through switches generally have 3 positions. On to one circuit, one to another circuit and off. These are used on the indicators on some Westies.

Often with the Savage switches, others have used double pole switch in conjunction with diodes and resistors to have back lighting of switched and different brightness levels for On and backlight. I achieved this using an Arduino for my dash controller. I used some Apem switches from Caterham for mine. 

You also need to think about momentary switches verses latched switches- e.g. Latched for Hazard but momentary for horn etc.

 

APEM Waterproof switch-pushbutton-IP-mom-ENG.pdf

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Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Secretary

What a great question Robo, it’s something that often “throws” people! :blush:

Equally, a great answer from Ian. I hope you don’t mind, but I’ve moved this to the FAQ section, so it can be a handy long term reference. (A link will stay in its original location for a few weeks, while people get used to its new home.)

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@IanK (Bagpuss) thanks for your answer, I get it now, yes I’m getting the momentary indicators/lights/high beam as I’m going blinkstop and beamstop :yes:

1 other question, is it a mot requirement to have a red illuminated hazard or can it be your chosen colour to suit ?? 

@Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Secretary Apologies for the lack of title and no problems moving it 

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Ian Kinder (Bagpuss) - Joint Peak District AO
53 minutes ago, Robo said:

@IanK (Bagpuss) thanks for your answer, I get it now, yes I’m getting the momentary indicators/lights/high beam as I’m going blinkstop and beamstop :yes:

1 other question, is it a mot requirement to have a red illuminated hazard or can it be your chosen colour to suit ?? 

@Robo I'm not an MOT expert, unlike @Martyn Vann - Joint Warwickshire AO. However a quick google reveals: http://www.ukmot.com/manual/1.4/Flashing-Type

which states "The hazard warning lamp tell tale may be a separate light or the same as the indicator tell-tale. However, it must be a flashing light. "

Therefore any colour flashing or even both left and right indicator tell tells flashing, should be acceptable.

I've wondered if it would be allowed to not have a hazard button and use a combined press of left and right indicator to actuate the hazard lights. I could easily implement it with my Arduino solution and a 'wizard' like Mike @Kit Car Electronics could do similar. This would lead to less buttons on the dash. However, it wouldn't be obvious to others as how to actuate the hazards and a 'dyno tape' label explaining operation might not look too pretty!

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Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Secretary

I'll have a look for the MOT manual, but my understanding was you needed a hazard button. Though that may be IVA?

As an aside though, Mike's Freewheel, does indeed activate the hazards if you press both indicator buttons at once. (Assuming you've wired it with two discrete buttons of course.)

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Peter (Monty)

I think the IVA manual dictates that the control for the hazard lights has to be identified by the hazard symbol, but allows the indicator telltales to be used together instead of a dedicated hazard telltale.

Edit: so it doesn't actually say that. It's certainly how it works on production cars, but whether the two-button solution would get past a tester, I couldn't say.

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Ian Kinder (Bagpuss) - Joint Peak District AO
21 minutes ago, Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Secretary said:

I'll have a look for the MOT manual, but my understanding was you needed a hazard button. Though that may be IVA?

As an aside though, Mike's Freewheel, does indeed activate the hazards if you press both indicator buttons at once. (Assuming you've wired it with two discrete buttons of course.)

Typical Mike, ahead of the curve as usual with his excellent, innovative products!

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Martyn Vann - Warwickshire AO

As stated above, for an MOT the hazards must have a flashing tell tale on the dash, colour not specified but it can be the indicator tell tales flashing together. The switch does not have to flash so long as it is a clearly identifiable switch and a clearly identifiable tell tale works with the hazards in both the ignition on and ignition off condition.

FYI - for MOT purposes hazard warning lamps are only required on vehicles registered after 1st April 1986. Q plated cars are to be treated as registered January 1971 so would not require them but if fitted they must work!

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Ian Kinder (Bagpuss) - Joint Peak District AO
56 minutes ago, Martyn Vann - Joint Warwickshire AO said:

As stated above, for an MOT the hazards must have a flashing tell tale on the dash, colour not specified but it can be the indicator tell tales flashing together. The switch does not have to flash so long as it is a clearly identifiable switch and a clearly identifiable tell tale works with the hazards in both the ignition on and ignition off condition.

FYI - for MOT purposes hazard warning lamps are only required on vehicles registered after 1st April 1986. Q plated cars are to be treated as registered January 1971 so would not require them but if fitted they must work!

Thanks @Martyn Vann - Joint Warwickshire AO where in the MOT manual is the requirement for a  "clearly identifiable switch and a clearly identifiable tell tale works with the hazards in both the ignition on and ignition off condition".

I don't doubt for a minute that you're not correct, I'd just like to see it in black and white!:d

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Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Secretary

Section 1.4 of the online manual gives:

“Hazard warning devices are not required on vehicles first used before 1 April 1986, but if one is fitted it must be tested.
The hazard warning lamp ‘tell tale’ may be a separate light or the same as the indicator ‘tell-tale. However, it must be a flashing light.”

So the switch itself doesn’t need to give any feedback, if you still have standard left/right warning lights on the dash for the indicators.

On the subject of how they are controlled, then slightly further on in 1.4:

“B. Hazard Warning Device
1. Check that the hazard warning device:
a. is fitted (where required)
b. is working
c. operates using only one switch
d. switch for presence, security and operation
e. ‘tell-tale’ is working correctly
f. operates all the direction indicators simultaneously with the ignition switched both on and off.”

(The underlining and bold is mine) 

B part 1c covers controlling them from one switch only, and f is relevant for those considering use of control systems for indicators. (I know Ian’s Arduino set up complies with f.)

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Ian Kinder (Bagpuss) - Joint Peak District AO
35 minutes ago, Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Secretary said:

Section 1.4 of the online manual gives:

“Hazard warning devices are not required on vehicles first used before 1 April 1986, but if one is fitted it must be tested.
The hazard warning lamp ‘tell tale’ may be a separate light or the same as the indicator ‘tell-tale. However, it must be a flashing light.”

So the switch itself doesn’t need to give any feedback, if you still have standard left/right warning lights on the dash for the indicators.

On the subject of how they are controlled, then slightly further on in 1.4:

“B. Hazard Warning Device
1. Check that the hazard warning device:
a. is fitted (where required)
b. is working
c. operates using only one switch
d. switch for presence, security and operation
e. ‘tell-tale’ is working correctly
f. operates all the direction indicators simultaneously with the ignition switched both on and off.”

(The underlining and bold is mine) 

B part 1c covers controlling them from one switch only, and f is relevant for those considering use of control systems for indicators. (I know Ian’s Arduino set up complies with f.)

Thanks Dave, that's knocked my idea on the head then :(

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Kit Car Electronics

I have made a BlinkStop version with a high current (10A and expensive) diode that runs hazards as well as indicators- using a double pole dash switch to join left and right circuits together, but the unit and indicator circuits have to be permanently powered, as noted above- so I don't advertise it as an option normally :) Most of my complicated wiring alternatives just confuse people, so I'm trying hard to keep things simple.

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Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Secretary
1 hour ago, IanK (Bagpuss) said:

Thanks Dave, that's knocked my idea on the head then :(

Yeah, while I could turn on the hazards using the Freewheel electronics, from the steering wheel buttons, I am retaining the original hazard switch, which if I’m honest, is probably what I’d use to turn them on, anyway. It’s just fast and easy to hit the standard switch.(or any other dedicated switch, for that matter.) Plus of course, it gives me hazards without the FreeWheel being powered.

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