Popular Post Rab (bombero) Reid Posted September 13, 2016 Popular Post Share Posted September 13, 2016 Isn't it weird how a subject comes up in one conversation, then you hear it mentioned again and again over the course of a few days! Well, fires in kitcars or, at least, fire related discussions about fires in kitcars, was one of those subjects that has come up repeatedly recently.. First, those that may be FB friends with Tiger owning Trevor Harmer will know that one of his troupe suffered from a kitcar fire on their European tour recently (no injuries thankfully), then someone posted a link to ECP who are selling a 1kg dry powder (DP) for £7.99 discounted and then a local member has asked for my advice on what is the best type to get....spooky! Anyway, this has spurred me on to write this guide to fighting fires in kitcars, not only efficiently, but safely! My credentials - I've been a firefighter for 26 years and in that time, I've spent a number of years at brigade and national level as a fire instructor and I've spent a fair bit of my career fighting vehicle fires for real! Not saying that I'm a know-it-all but hopefully some of my own experiences and the following can be shared and put to good use should you ever need it! I could go on forever but will try and keep this succinct! Okay, type and location - Halons (BCF) were great performers based on the medium-to-effect ratio ie not a lot needed to knock down a given size of fire when compared to the ratios required of CO2, foam, dry powder and the likes for the same given fire size. BCFs are no longer available to us mortals and are only used in very specific industrial applications. So what's left? Foam and water are inefficient unless you've got an 18,000 litre tank to hand ie a fire engine! CO2 are good but large quantities are needed and they don't possess good cooling attributes therefore, a fire may easily re-ignite. Plus, they are stored at greater pressures hence the much heavier container! This leaves dry powder (DP) which on the whole are very effective IF used correctly! Note, from a 1kg DP extinguisher, you can expect around 7-10 seconds of use at an effective range of around 1.5 to 2m and so control and accuracy are of the utmost importance as you can imagine! Know where your extinguisher is! A fire in your pride'n'joy can often induce confusion in your thought process. Ideal location are often close at hand to be quickly got at ie on the bulkhead between the driver and passenger or under either/both driver and passenger seats. Footnote: do not rely upon just the clip to hold it in place but add a velcro strap - you don't want it flying forward like a missile in the event of a head-on collision! Instructions - Read the instructions on your extinguisher today - do not wait until you need it! Understand the basics of its operation. Time - Don't panic! Take your time as haste can often lead to injury and premature use of extinguisher. Careful - Stay safe! Approach at a low angle keeping your head low and ready to turn your head away should things suddenly go t*ts up! Never stand over your car engine! If removing the bonnet, do so quickly with your face turned away and give yourself room to step back. Accuracy - Aim the extinguisher before pressing the lever. Aim for the seat of the fire as best you can. Range - Remember that small extinguishers have a limited range. Position yourself relatively close and always low down and use an outstretched arm to maximise your distance from the fire. WRONG - running towards the fire having already operated the extinguisher. Note how he is also on the windward side with the flames, smoke and now dry powder blowing back towards him! How the professionals are trained...keep low! Although these guys are using (plenty of) water and have the range, they will move forward as they knock down the fire. This is something that you could do too, should you feel confident that you are beating the fire back. If I can reiterate just one point and that is about safety when opening/removing a bonnet. Many people are burnt by removing/opening a bonnet as the removal of the bonnet introduces more air to the fire and they can and often 'flare up'! Be aware of this, stay low, quickly flick open your catches, flip the bonnet off (to hell with damaging it at this point, people!) and step quickly back. Grab your extinguisher (which you have taken with you when you got out of the car and it's lying beside you ready!), position yourself, remove tab/tag/clip, approach low, aim, fire! [pun] I started by saying this is a guide to fighting fires, not firefighting .. I don't expect anyone to become conversant to any kind of professional or even competent level but I do hope that this wee guide helps should you be in the unfortunate position of having to deal with a kitcar fire. Lastly, if anyone has any questions, please ask away on here or PM me 17 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoffrey Carter (Buttercup) Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 What a brilliant post and thank you for spending the time to write it up. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thrustyjust Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 Thanks for the write up. To be honest an extinguisher is really just to get out safely. A fibre glass car on fire is not going to be put out by a powder extinguisher. Cars , however much of a heart break watching it, can be replaced , severely burnt and scarred for life people cant , so get away and stay away and consider your safety first. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAFKARM Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 Good post. Also worth noting - our cars are just plastic and metal. They are insured so consider carefully if it worth risking your life over. My extinguisher is there to hopefully give me a few extra vital seconds if myself or passenger are stuck in it. Rob - Ive heard the vibrations in our cars can make the powder compact so the extinguisher doesnt work. Is there a way of checking its operation and how often would you suggest replacing them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rab (bombero) Reid Posted September 13, 2016 Author Share Posted September 13, 2016 Thanks for the write up. To be honest an extinguisher is really just to get out safely. A fibre glass car on fire is not going to be put out by a powder extinguisher. Cars , however much of a heart break watching it, can be replaced , severely burnt and scarred for life people cant , so get away and stay away and consider your safety first. It's true that fibreglass can 'go up' a lot quicker but taking into account that you're going to be aware of it a lot quicker than say, in a regular tintop, you'll be out of it a good bit quicker too. I beg to differ that a powder extinguisher won't put out a kitcar fire. Tackled quickly enough it can, given that the fuel pump isn't still running, etc. All portable extinguishers are certainly designed for fires in their incipient stages and something to bear in mind. I always say, if you're quick enough, then there's a fighting chance of putting it out if you feel confident to do so. Rob - Ive heard the vibrations in our cars can make the powder compact so the extinguisher doesnt work. Is there a way of checking its operation and how often would you suggest replacing them? Modern dry powder extinguishers have an 'anti-caking' agent (don't laugh) added to them as even under normal storage conditions, older types could compact over time. A modern dry powder extinguisher should work effectively within its stated shelf life. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark (smokey mow) Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 I always remember this thread from when it was posted of how quickly and easily a fire can start in our cars http://forum.wscc.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic/80469-my-very-very-lucky-escape/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rab (bombero) Reid Posted September 14, 2016 Author Share Posted September 14, 2016 On 13/09/2016 at 23:00, Mark Wendon (smokey mow) - WSCC Club Secretary said: I always remember this thread from when it was posted of how quickly and easily a fire can start in our cars http://forum.wscc.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic/80469-my-very-very-lucky-escape/ Good to see the marshalls were extremely quick to react! Note, that they were also using the 9kg size and a bit of sheer luck (which we all need) and grit, they got the fire out. It might be worth me also mentioning that you shouldn't attempt to remove the bonnet if it's becoming unsafe to do so. The fire can be fought, with a mixture of success, with the bonnet in place however, you must aim it close through the openings such as top vents, exhaust exit point and/or front grille. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
congorobot Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 It's true that fibreglass can 'go up' a lot quicker What about carbon fiber? If its less combustable I could sell it to the misses as a saftey critical upgrade! ;-) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rab (bombero) Reid Posted September 14, 2016 Author Share Posted September 14, 2016 What about carbon fiber? If its less combustable I could sell it to the misses as a saftey critical upgrade! ;-) Nice try Unfortunately carbon fibre, whilst pretty resistant to radiated heat, can burn like hell! More importantly, the fire by-products of carbon fibrous materials are extremely dangerous if ingested as a dust and potential needlestick type injuries from the fibres where they have gone brittle. PS, I hope your wife doesn't read this! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terryathome Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 I suppose the more dangerous fire would be from the fuel system leaking and setting alight in the engine bay not to mention the fuel tank area. Electrical fires I suppose would be less harsh/frequent. Conclusion: 1. Fuel fires, call Rob and he'll come down and put it out for you. 1kg fire extinguisher as Rob say 7 to 10 seconds? thats not long enough in my book so put it back as it will contaminate the potatoes and a few sausages that you have just put on. 2. Electrical, have a go with the extinguisher you might be lucky. see point 1 above if you fail. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimM Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 Good info Rab ... Thanks again. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tisme Posted September 15, 2016 Share Posted September 15, 2016 Rob - excellent article and a good candidate for the next copy of the magazine? I have a question about AFFF extinguishers - what's your view on these? I have a 2ltr AFFF (Alloy body) mounted on the drivers side on the floor (about the only space I could find tbh) - it was left over from my racing car and is still "in the green" but I can get it checked and refilled locally. However, I've never had to use one (and hope not to) - are they really any better than DP and are the principals of fighting a fire the same (and roughly how long would you have with 2ltrs of AFFF?) You can pick up a decent AFFF car extinguisher (1.5 to 2ltr) from about £60-£80 so they're not that expensive these days. I have twin Weber DCOE's and they have a habit of spitting back at certain revs which always worries me but as the K&N filters stick out through the bonnet, I always give them a quick glance to make sure there's no "follow through" from the spitting Still extremely wary (terrified if car related) of flames though and especially petrol ever since I threw a jug of petrol onto a bonfire when I was a kid - fortunately only singed eyebrows but it absolutely scared the pants off me - I can still see the flame leaping back up from the bonfire and into the jug ............... lesson well learnt though and now huge respect for any type of fire and those that fight them. Colin p.s - is the Great Wall of China still there - had many a nice meal there when I worked up in Edinburgh (a while ago now) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pickmaster Andy Lowe Posted September 15, 2016 Share Posted September 15, 2016 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Chairman Posted September 15, 2016 Share Posted September 15, 2016 It was my understanding that plumbed in systems were designed to be used in conjunction with hand helds, not to entirely replace them; they literally bought you time, sometimes just to get out and get safe, but otherwise to get out, get the handheld, get bonnets open etc. Meanwhile the plumbed in has either smothered the fire completely or stopped/slowed it from developing and spreading too much. (Though you can get really big plumbed in set ups with lots of nozzles that might just get most fires out completely!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Marks - North Oxfordshire AO Posted September 15, 2016 Share Posted September 15, 2016 My plumbed in Lifeline Zero 360 gas extinguisher is surprisingly small (thinking back to previous plumbed in BCF systems when I still had my rally car). My 2.25kg set up was small enough to fit behind the dashboard in my Eleven and the six nozzles are set up with two below the dash (one pointing into each footwell), one in the scuttle area behind the dash (where the instruments, Ford EDIS Unit, Megajolt computer are) and the other three around the engine bay. The system is one for use in open sports cars so I hope would buy me time to safely get out of the car even if it could not kill the fire totally. I've always looked at fitting / carrying an extinguisher similarly to carrying a tool kit in that they should ideally be warding off evil spirits rather than be needed on a regular basis! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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