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AdamR

C20XE dry sump questions

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AdamR

Morning,

Once again I'm drawing on WSCC knowledge... So thanks in advance for any help and apologies for the inevitable stupid questions!

After a reasonable amount of development work on my car over the last few months, it's now been a couple of track days without any issues so upgradeitis (or maybe reliabilityitis in this case) has started to set in.

The car has somewhere North of 220bhp @ 8300rpm limiter and I would like to make sure it stays that way!

The wet sump at the moment is a shallow 'winged' one, with apparently high pressure oil pump (I've never seen less than 2 bar even at idle and oil at 100 degrees, this is on an ETB dash setup with pre-calibrated sensors so have no reason to believe it's inaccurate), oil cooler and remote filter.

Last time on track I noticed lateral g creeping very close to 1.5, and consistently over 1.3, so I'm wondering if a dry sump setup is going to be a prudent step (then I can also get some used slicks to save killing my 888s). I'm also aware it will improve ground clearance and free up a bit of power which can't be bad :)

So... 1) Is this a good step to help ensure engine longevity?

2) Which brand's kit is the best of the bunch, all factors considered (price, ease of fitment, reliability, availability of spares)?

3) I'm reasonably confident with a set of tools, is this a home job? And can it be done with the engine in situ?

4) How much will I need to budget to do the job properly?

5) Any other important info I've missed?!

Thank you!

Adam

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peterm135

Yes it's a good idea , you can buy the kit from SBD  or the likes but factor in the cost of hoses and connections ! i reckon the thick end of 2K if buying new 

Easy enough to do but remember the crankshaft bolt has to come out and they are a bit tight 

I will be a pain to do in situ but it can be done.

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FILFAN

Yeah all the additional costs add up

My setup cost

Tank £300

Pipe and fittings £300 don't get cheap crap saving a few pounds can cost thousands

Depending on your pulley setup you may need a new front pulley and alternator pulley

You will probably need mounting lugs or a plate welded to your tank

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FILFAN

Yeah I got a pace one its a quality item

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Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Secretary

As Peter says, it costs more than you think by the time you factor in all the ancillaries that the DS kits don't include. That said, it's still the fraction of a cost of a destroyed highly tuned engine. I found it wasn't just lateral g that was killing my XE, it was pressure drop under braking immediately followed with very tight bends that finally took out my crank. (4mm end float is never good!)

 

Both SBD and QED are the typical suppliers of the "basic" kit, though there are others, (Turbosport do a good pump/kit). Note the DS pan that comes with these kits isn't actually that much shallower than the standard WF/QED/SBD wet sump. (Not sure how deep yours is, but they're about 100mm) The "standard" DS pan that comes with these kits is 88mm. SBD do an ultra low line DS pan, available in one of their kits, and if doing again, that's the one I'd go for, not for height reasons, As without machining the fins off it's 100mm deep! (The protective fins on the dry sump pan are there to protect the ring gear, flywheel & gearbox. If you are running one of our smaller flywheels, it is possible to machine the sump pan down to a minimum of 65mm obtain more ground clearance.) But because it has a mounting boss for an external crank sensor.

 

In addition to the kit you will need a remote oil filter assembly, a DS tank - SBD's is excellent for the XE - it was designed for an XE powered Westfield and has the appropriate brackets in the correct place to sit in the triangulated bit of the chassis near the scuttle. You will also need hoses. Stainless braided with alloy fittings are not necessary, though look pretty! ;)  But will add significantly to the cost in the sizes required. Depending on the kit gone for, you may also need a breather blanking kit, (though I made my own bungs on the lathe and just bought the block blanking plate). You may need to either change your front pully or machine off the powersteering pump belt section.

 

Make sure you get a "kit" suitable for a Westfield! I know that sounds obvious, but the precise location of the pump, and hence the machining of it's mounting bracket varies a lot! Ideally, on a WF, it goes on the NS and high enough to clear front suspension pick up points. (IIRC, it's the same bracket used by the pick ups!)

 

As for fitting, I did mine in situ, but it's a pain, engine out would be easier. Apart from changing sump pan, the front lower corner of the block usually needs some of the casting "relieving" a little with an angry grinder. (In order for the pump to sit correctly). You also need to remove the lower crank pulley and swap the oil pump for the new blanking/oil inlet plate. The pulleys are then refitted, including the new DS pump drive pulley - which won't fit if you have the standard two belt alternator/ps pump pulley.

 

You may or may not need to relocate you're alternator if it was mounted with the standard WF bracket. (as that's where the DS pump goes).

 

Then it's just a case of fitting the ancillaries round the engine bay and plumbing it all up!

 

(If the weathers OK, I'll be at this weeks Cheshire meet with mine if you want a shuffty!)

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AdamR

Loads of info within a few hours - thanks all, especially you Dave :t-up:

 

Sounds like there's a dry sump kit and a Marks & Spencer dry sump kit, and the differences are important... I shall grab a few pics of what I already have (including remote oil filter and cooler with associated hoses, some form of SBD crank pulley which looks a lot like the one in the PDF Peter linked to (thanks!)) and try and get myself to the Cheshire meet, would be ideal to see your setup if you don't mind :)

 

I very much like the idea of the protective fins on the SBD sump - thanks for the heads up there. I'm not sure if I have a smaller flywheel than normal, but can investigate.

 

I'm happy with grinding, fabricating brackets and working in awkward positions so if it is possible to do in situ I'll have a crack. Alternator is currently on the intake side of the engine (OS of the car) so maybe that's a bonus...

 

Sounds like it'll require more cash than I expected to do it to a good standard, but should be worthwhile.

 

Cheers all!

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Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Secretary

yeah, both Pete's and Phill's replies came in while I was typing!

 

The Ultra Low Line pan is just a more developed pan really. Nothing wrong with the others, it's just it has those, "if I was designing this again, I'd do this..." type changes.

 

(The smaller flywheel also needs a small race type mutii plate clutch and different starter, so i'd guess you probably don't have one?)

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AdamR

I thought as much - that was a beast of a reply, thanks!

 

I see what you mean, yep. If the cost isn't vastly different (I'm off to investigate now) then it does look a nice bit of kit.

 

Hmm, it does have a twin plate clutch and the starter is tiny, so maybe...

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Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Secretary

Ah, ok, always said your car had some real nice trick bits on it! 

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AdamR

Yeah, maybe it's not such a turkey after all - for the first time since I got it, I actually like it now! Haha.

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peterm135

One quirk i found with my system is i needed a 45degree fitting to connect the hose to the front plate, with a straight connector it fouled the alternator belt.

Mine is an SBD lowline and it fitted no problems. Got most of the hoses and fitting from speedflow, -10 &-12 from memory.

I have a few pictures if you want a look drop me a pm 

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AdamR

Peter - thanks for your offer of help! I've sent you a PM.
 
Bit of a bump but I've done some more research, and now think I have things a bit more straight in my head. Still have a few questions though... Dave, if you were thinking of replying with your usual massive wall of text, feel free to tell me to ring you instead if it's easier for you!
 
Right, here's a few pics of where the car is at now.
 
eng1.jpg

eng2.jpg

And here is a list I have made up. Hoping someone in the know would be so kind as to cast an eye over it to make sure I'm not missing anything obvious!


Stuff I already have:
Remote oil filter setup (sandwich plate and filter mount) (As a side note, the sandwich plate was lockwired on when I checked it - very nice I thought. Until I looked more closely and it was effectively wired to itself, AND wired anticlockwise / self-loosening!! Which has meant the whole lot loosened off a bit, the only thing preventing it from coming off completely was one of the fittings rubbing against the alternator belt!).
4-rib alternator kit and associated crank pulley



Main bits to buy:
Dry sump pan and gasket
Pump
Bracket for pump (and associated fixings)
Oil tank
Oil pump blanking plate thingy and gasket*
(*The SBD site says you can simply remove internals from standard pump, but that sounds a bit pikey? More than happy to do it if it's a reliable, known solution though!)
Pump drive pulley for crank
Drive belt
Relevant plumbing for all of the above (I will probably order this once I have the physical bits in situ so I know the amounts / lengths of hose and which fittings will be required)



Sundries required / might as well do this while it's apart:
Crank pulley bolt
Crank nose oil seal
Cambelt pulley bolt
Oil filter

Oil
Silicone sealant
Threadlock (242 blue)



Questions:

At the moment there appears to be a crank sensor in the side of my block (second picture)? If yes, I am assuming I will need to fit a timing wheel to the crank pulley, and therefore also require bracket for sensor mounting? Or does the pump mounting bracket usually clear this?

Will the oil cooler still be required? The highest oil temp I've seen on a track day (although it was only ~5 degrees ambient and the sensor is in the sump) was around 98, water runs at 82.

Can the breathers now be removed (other than one on the oil tank itself)? SBD site mentions this but doesn't say it's a certainty, I am guessing I might as well just leave them on for safety?

Are braided hoses worthwhile? I'm more of a 'function over form' man!

Oil tank: I have seen 'easy clean' recommended, I am guessing this just means it can be split apart for cleaning out during an oil change? Also, what sort of size / capacity is required? Or shall I just go for the SBD one which is tall and slim enough to fit inside cross member of front corner of chassis (but seems expensive!)? Or get one made?

To prime the system for the first time after it's been built, do I just fill the tank to, say, 3/4 level with oil (or wherever the baffle is should there be one?), remove plugs and turn car over, checking for oil pressure and keeping the oil topped up? Then, re-connect the HT leads and let it idle for a bit, then re-check the level?

Currently my oil temp sensor is in the sump plug, where's best place for it now? I think there are a few bungs in the oilways of the head (which look to be the same thread - bonus), one of these should be suitable?

 

Many thanks for any help offered :t-up:

Adam

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FILFAN

you seem to have most of it covered and im sure gadgers will be along soon.

 

the crank sensor is fine that you have in 

for the temp can you drill and tap the remote filter?

i got all my pipe connectors etc from speedflow they are not cheap but i guess you get what you pay for. they also do inline adapters that will take a temp/pressure sender

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FILFAN

your engine looks quite forward like mine. the pump pulley may hit the chassis which may be worth checking as there wasnt much room on mine 

 

IMG_00002.jpg

 

IMG_00025.jpg

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