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jeff oakley

Latest IVA emissions proposal

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Hi All,

I just picked this up on the Lowcost Forum and this is something I feel that we as individuals and as a club should respond to. 

In a nutshell the government is proposing that within the consultation below, that any kitcar that is presented for IVA must meet the emissions level for the year it is presented. So if you present a car for IVA  test in say 2019, the emissions must meet that standard. 

So in essence a car like Gary Tipping's which needs IVA testing or any Westfield 11 will be unable to meet the new levels. At present it is tested to the emissions level of the year the engine was first used.

Further than this, although it is not normally retrospective, if they decide to change the MOT procedure to reflect this, many cars might not meet a standard if it was registered in one year with an engine form one much earlier.

The final thing is that the consultation has been sent out to the list shown below and apart the Nice Vehicle network which Westfield and GBS are members of all the others have no interest in our hobby.

We need to set out a response to this as we do not need erosion of our rights to build cars in period. It is not just Westfields, Cobra, Stratos, jaguar C type are all ones which this would affect.

I shall do my own but I would urge all members to do the same and also the Club. We need to circulate this as wide as we can before the consultation date passes.

Jeff

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/road-vehicles-improving-air-quality-and-safety

https://www.facebook.com/groups/128498247234680/permalink/1601235803294243/

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Well done for spotting this Jeff, I too have added my views. I think all clubs should join together and fight this proposal.

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This very worrying for me. It would mean changing to a new engine with all the added complications. I can't see a crossflow ever complying with current emission standards.

This will effect many, many kits that have been registered at a later date than when the engine was manufactured!

Gary

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Discussion here too. Gary a crossflow will pass, but as said you will need fuel injection, a cat and mapping. You could have a 3 stage map, so you have one for emmision checks only, then when you leave the test, switch to 2 for general driving and 3 for track use etc. It would make the car a better car. Better fuel useage , just as throbby as webers . See the ex chairmans CVH conversion , which is most of what you need other than a cat and a lambda. 

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I can't see how it would be fair to retrospectively penalise an already built car that was tested and registered to the regs at that time. Surely it would only be newly built cars that would be affected and surely there would have to be a grace period for those in build?

I know it's a pain but I'm surprised the kit industry has got away with it up til now to be honest. But then again it's such a minute percentage of vehicles on the roads it not going to make a nats dangler of a difference to the polar bears.

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If I was going for a new build like Chris with the Jag is heading to F. I  for it rather than carbs  for driveability and also economy. I'd be looking at the Jenvey DCOE's FI version to keep the originality look too for early WF cars. We are nothing in the grand scheme of the DVLA systems , so although new legislation is coming in, its probably long overdue. 

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5 hours ago, Thrustyjust said:

Discussion here too. Gary a crossflow will pass, but as said you will need fuel injection, a cat and mapping. You could have a 3 stage map, so you have one for emmision checks only, then when you leave the test, switch to 2 for general driving and 3 for track use etc. It would make the car a better car. Better fuel useage , just as throbby as webers . See the ex chairmans CVH conversion , which is most of what you need other than a cat and a lambda. 

I am not sure it would get through even after fitting the Fi etc. To work effectively a cat has to reach a high temperature and the old tech engines do not do that. Even a car like the Mini which was fitted with Fi could not, imho, meet the newest Euro 6 legislation that is in place today.

The Westfields using the latest Ecoboost engines will pass but it is the others that is a concern. 

I am sure that they have not thought of this and like the moving to a 4 yearly MOT do listen to well explained rational. Ranting will not help.

To my mind, the problem is a small one as most Kit Cars are low mileage using more modern engines anyway and only traditional ones like Gary's will need to be catered for in any changes which should be possible.

I have sent an email to the Kit CAr press to alert them and hopefully get them involved. Complete Kit Car was involved with Vosa on other issues relating to our hobbies which is why it is strange they were not asked to commnet.

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4 minutes ago, Gary (KugaWestie) - North Oxfordshire AO said:

I have had a quick scan through.

Looks like this would introduced this year, correct?

Yes as I read it this will happen in July of 2018 for IVA unless we can stop it, there are so many dates in there but as they see Kit cars as a small issue it appears they have decided to just do it. Others changes are phased in that affects the major manufacturers.

This is why it is vital we move quickly otherwise cars will be stuck in limbo that are being built now

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As I am building a previously unregistered pre-lit with an uprated crossflow, I am hoping that there will be a grace period for cars in build or I could be caught by this. I am currently wiring up the fuel injection and will have a lambda in the system but hadn't planned on a cat. I will struggle on but I might end up with a large and expensive door stop or boat anchor and looking for an engine that fits and complies.

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9 minutes ago, jeff oakley said:

I am not sure it would get through even after fitting the Fi etc. To work effectively a cat has to reach a high temperature and the old tech engines do not do that. Even a car like the Mini which was fitted with Fi could not, imho, meet the newest Euro 6 legislation that is in place today.

The Westfields using the latest Ecoboost engines will pass but it is the others that is a concern. 

I am sure that they have not thought of this and like the moving to a 4 yearly MOT do listen to well explained rational. Ranting will not help.

To my mind, the problem is a small one as most Kit Cars are low mileage using more modern engines anyway and only traditional ones like Gary's will need to be catered for in any changes which should be possible.

I have sent an email to the Kit CAr press to alert them and hopefully get them involved. Complete Kit Car was involved with Vosa on other issues relating to our hobbies which is why it is strange they were not asked to commnet.

Ford Endura engines were based on the old crossflow and ran cats and fuel injection. As to meeting current emmisions , anything is possible with a decent mapper and a cam with standard profiles. Anything radical will push it out . 

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10 minutes ago, jeff oakley said:

Yes as I read it this will happen in July of 2018 for IVA unless we can stop it, there are so many dates in there but as they see Kit cars as a small issue it appears they have decided to just do it. Others changes are phased in that affects the major manufacturers.

This is why it is vital we move quickly otherwise cars will be stuck in limbo that are being built now

Yes that is how I read it too.

This will impact me if it comes in as I am planning on using a 1978 Rover V8 engine in my Cobra build.

The only chance I have is if there is a grace period of a couple of years for kits currently in build so I can get it built and IVA'd

I do plan on fuel injecting the engine, but did not plan on CAT's in the Exhaust system

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I'm just over 4 years in to my build and now also have concerns over these proposed changes. I guess whether I'd be able to make the latest emissions tests will depend on whether the mapper for the engine can make sufficient adjustments with the engine as it is. If not then who knows.

 

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1 hour ago, Thrustyjust said:

Ford Endura engines were based on the old crossflow and ran cats and fuel injection. As to meeting current emmisions , anything is possible with a decent mapper and a cam with standard profiles. Anything radical will push it out . 

You are correct but being based is not really appropriate. Those engines even with modern Fi would struggle to be able to pass the Euro6 levels and these are due to be reduced even further in the future. Ford would still be using it if they could but they cannot hence an expensive three cylinder Turbo Fi engine that burns hydrocarbons at high temperature.

In the proposal is also a section on cheat devices, that would certainly cover a map or a power commader fitted specially for a test and after the VW case, which is driving this change, is one where you would end up in huge trouble.

The best we can hope for is a continuation of what we have now otherwise what else might they want? ABS, stability control rules that say no modification is ever allowed. We have a lot of leeway at the moment and thin end of wedge springs to mind.

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I would struggle with the C type installing a CAT not in the sense of space but heat of where it would go.

My reading this is virtually a done deal and I would think most kit car manufactures will not argue as they are moving towards new style engines, its the more specialist side of replica kits where the issue is, who possibly wont have any say as they will be the smaller cottage industry manufacture.

This might be a use of 38Degrees for getting a petition going

 

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