Target Times For 2017

[maurici]

Thanks guys. good and hard job...

by the way... drops in anglesey international and the two lapper in blyton (actually two venues where I've been really competitive under the old TT) bellow the actual records, I think are quite hard.. 3 seconds is a BIG chiunk of time...

I'm with John here. Stablished records should be respected...

And some other tracks where the time was ridiculously fast ( thinking in Mira) that was scored as wet even in a sunny and dry day... remains unchanged... All seems a bit confusing, but, is the same for all, so... crack on.

[Scottish Bloke]

Another Year, Another Tinker

As long as we run this system we will have issues. No system will be perfect, I get that, but I think there is better than this.

 

 

[Terry Everall]

I agree with you Rich but nobody can think of one at the moment that satisfies all our class criteria including novices etc

 

 

[Scottish Bloke]

Top three times in class from previous season, divided by 3 = target time.

Current target time (record set in optimal conditions etc) is retained and used as a Record and a bonus awarded if achieved. Simple.

Rich

 

[AdamR]

I'm all for change and exploring new ideals - and I too think the current system is flawed in some ways. But, I completely appreciate it's really hard (impossible?) to work something out that will make everyone happy!

 

I like your suggestion Rich... But, questions:

 

What happens when there aren't enough entries to create that average time?

What do we do for wet events? Score it by 'on the day' averages instead? But then again, what if there aren't enough people in the class?

What happens if, say, 2016 is wet and 2017 is dry? Go back to the latest 'dry' times?

 

I've been looking at 2016 vs 2017 target times and see a few weird ones cropping up. I'll post my spreadsheet sometime for people to see / discuss.

[Scottish Bloke]

32 minutes ago, AdamR said:

I'm all for change and exploring new ideals - and I too think the current system is flawed in some ways. But, I completely appreciate it's really hard (impossible?) to work something out that will make everyone happy!

 

I like your suggestion Rich... But, questions:

 

What happens when there aren't enough entries to create that average time?

What do we do for wet events? Score it by 'on the day' averages instead? But then again, what if there aren't enough people in the class?

What happens if, say, 2016 is wet and 2017 is dry? Go back to the latest 'dry' times?

 

I've been looking at 2016 vs 2017 target times and see a few weird ones cropping up. I'll post my spreadsheet sometime for people to see / discuss.

Two times, divide by 2.

Where previous year was classed as wet we need to go back further and take dry times. No system is perfect, I just think this gives people are better chance and rewards the fastest driver and awards a bonus point if the *record* is achieved.

 

[Paul Aspden]

Always a fun time when TT's are released. I for one don't want the job of setting them and I commend those who have stud up and taken on the task, well done!

I have to confess to not even looking at the times, ( I won't be competing unless rednop 180 sets the challenge) but if they keep changing on a regular (annual) basis, the system will never work. Stability is key and I thought we were getting there.

Lets see what the future brings

 

[XTR2Turbo]

What is the main problem with target times that needs to be addressed?

Have they resulted in a non worthy or the wrong person becoming Champ?

 

 

 

[XTR2Turbo]

55 minutes ago, AdamR said:

I'm all for change and exploring new ideals - and I too think the current system is flawed in some ways.

Adam.  what in your view are the flaws?   Are you talking about the concept or the targets themselves and the methodology to calculate them?

[AdamR]

44 minutes ago, XTR2Turbo said:

What is the main problem with target times that needs to be addressed?

Ok... so... this is a bit of an 'outsider' view as I'm obviously nowhere near as experienced as many, and as they say 'some knowledge can be more dangerous than none at all', but this is what I see... I guess this discussion happens every year so I'm probably covering old ground, but here goes:

IMO it's fairly clear from the last few years that it's been possible to switch class to one with either no target times or easy target times, and then pick certain events in order to maximise your score. Of course, you still have to be in it to win it, and drive well to achieve those times, and yes everyone is able to do the same thing if they want - but being able to work out which events to go to and which aren't worth bothering with is a bit... weird. You should have to go out, drive the wheels off it, and beat the guy next to you in the paddock on the same track on the same day to win, rather than it being possible to do it without actually ever crossing paths all year!

Some of the TT adjustments for this year are odd I feel. An example that jumps out is the 1 lap International at Anglesey. Last year the target in B2 was 96.26, I managed a 95.48, but the 2017 TT is 93.33. My understanding was that targets, under the current system, would be set to class records. Then, given that the regs state there has been a 2% tyre adjustment to the Class A and B times for 2017 to take into account 1B vs 1C tyres, I had anticipated that TT to go up to 97.39. Clearly there is a reason somewhere for this TT going down, but I think transparency / explanations from the organisers is paramount to ensure people don't start creating conspiracy theories!

The average target time for Class A2 in 2017 is 0.4% harder than 2016, for Class B2 it's 0.8% easier. Some of the jumps in TT from 2016 to 2017 are huge (up to 5%), and again I thought there should have been a 2% adjustment so I can't see why Class A has got harder. Nobody in Class A smashed it this year and if the idea is to try and entice people into the series, then surely there needs to be a carrot for this? Of course, we can't have Cyril aged 78 from Weston-Super-Mare coming in as a newbie with Ditchfinder Pro tyres and a bog standard 1700 X-Flow and winning the whole shebang, but IMO if you are going to stump up all this cash (and time, and effort) to compete then you need to feel like you have at least half a chance of actually competing. I guess this in itself creates an issue - there's such a broad spectrum of experience, budget and car spec to try and throw a blanket over...

I guess I am looking at this from a different perspective than many (Classes A and B, rather than the 'unlimited' classes) so I see different things, but I dunno... I feel like an 'on the day' system could possibly work better - like most (all?) other forms of motorsport - and potentially having the series with less events might reduce the chances of luck (wet events) or easy target times playing a big part. I can't think of other national championships where you can pick and choose so much - my background is obviously in circuit racing, where we might do 14-18 races a year and you drop 2 of those. If you don't go to them all, tough luck! The counter to this though is that sprinting IS different and it's great to be able to run at such a wide range of venues in all different areas of the country.

To sum up - maybe fewer events with fewer classes, which means more entrants per class, allowing a change to an on-the-day scoring system. Big overhaul needed though. I think it used to run something like this a while back too - so there must have been a reason for changing to TTs.. I guess there are pros and cons either way.

 

As has been said by others, I can fully appreciate this task is thankless, tricky, takes bl**** ages, and has no perfect solution! The rules and regs are there for us to see in black and white before we sign up, so there can be no whinging if we don't like it

 

[tkm_dave]

 

24 minutes ago, AdamR said:

we can't have Cyril aged 78 from Weston-Super-Mare coming in as a newbie with Ditchfinder Pro tyres and a bog standard 1700 X-Flow and winning the whole shebang

Bit harsh on Cyril, I have a feeling he'll withdraw his entry for next year now

[Terry Everall]

If you have an idea for 2018 in terms of a better scoring system then PM it to John Williams who will forward it to the SSOT sub committee whoa re already looking at alternative scoring systems. As  has already been stated there are always positives and negatives that need looking at in detail cos thats where you get problems. 

As far as explaining how myself and Graham Franklin set the TT's for this year you may just have to trust us that it was a fair process. Some that is still complicated and not understood by most people.( no disrespect to them) It would be too long for me to fully explain but I will try and give you a flavour in a post in next few days.

Please note classes A and B are not based on their own "records" as there are not enough of them. They are based on the TT for classes C and D but made easier by the 2% for tyres and 1.5% for Novice status

Meanwhile if you want to call me Adam I can give you some info that may help

Terry

07767836234

[Onliest Smeg David]

1st - MUCHLY TA ALL SSOC for putting in lots of effort and time to sort.

8 minutes ago, terry everall said:

Please note classes A and B are not based on their own "records" as there are not enough of them. They are based on the TT for classes C and D but made easier by the 2% for tyres and 1.5% for Novice status

I have a big handicap with the Lardy One so would not expect to have been meeting Target's in A. But have still felt a bit hard done by

I do feel the percentage adjustments were out at the events I did this year, drivers all the way up to Class D stuggled to meet the Novice A1 target times!

I was 3 seconds slower at Blyton moving from 1C tyres to 1B tyres, which is a lot more than 2%. (a better driver may have got nearer?)

For 2017 Novice A1 at Blyton has got easier by a massive 0.03ish seconds!

[mark.anson]

As Terry has mentioned there is a sub-committee of which I am one, who will be looking at the viability of different scoring systems during the course of next year.

We will be meeting early in the new year to discuss and decide which alternative systems we will look at and how we are going to assess the viability of each.

I must stress at this stage it does NOT necessarily mean we will move away from the current system in 2018 as that will be a decision for the full commitee once the results are in and properly assessed.

There will be a lot to consider, and those of us who have been round the SS long enough will know there is no perfect system. 

A balance has to be found between making a fair system, which maintains the competitive nature of the SS for the experienced competitors, whilst making it attractive to new entrants. Consideration also has to be given to the amount of work involved for those tasked with the scoring and maintainance of the system used. 

We already have some ideas to look at but if anyone has any suggestions as to sensible alternatives then please pass to John Williams via PM who will pass to us to consider. 

 

[woodman]

For me ,( my initial thoughts) the main problem with 'First past the post system' is that there is often only one or two cars in your Speed series  class on the day . So without a Hard/competitive TT you can just have a bit of a cruise and score max points.

Also ,if you are in a not very well supported class in the SS,but you drive up the hill/track like a demon you can still score good points on the day with the TT system

As an example, I remember when Ash Mason was competing . Ash set and broke National records at most events but because there was virtually no one else in his SS class he was unable to score highly.

Rich Kerrs idea of bonus point for breaking record does help this though and could be introduced into this or most other systems