John K Posted February 1, 2016 Share Posted February 1, 2016 OK admission time... I've never been able to heel and toe (for which I believe you would need the hip and knee joints of a 14 year old Russian gymnast). I love making life as hard for myself as possible when driving (even the old Mundane) so I double declutch and rev match on every down shift. Recently I decided to learn how to do it whilst breaking for a corner. Basically I wanted to leave breaking as late as poss but still to be in the right gear to launch should the opportunity present itself. And the only way to do this is to have three feet... So I'm braking, double clutching and rev matching all at the same time. It keeps you awake..! I tried to get my toe on the brake and my heel on the accelerator, but no way... So I currently have the left side of my foot on the brakes and the right hand side on the gas. And it works..! Are the pedals in a proper sports car set up properly to allow a real H&T..? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Everall Posted February 1, 2016 Share Posted February 1, 2016 you can do it the way you do 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhett Turner - Black Country AO Posted February 1, 2016 Share Posted February 1, 2016 I think heel and toe is a slight misnomer, I have seen a number of articles on the subject and heel and toe is not quite true to what happens these days. I fond this on Wikipedia "The name stems from pre-WW2 vehicles where the accelerator pedal was in the centre (between the clutch on the left and the foot brake to the right). The brake was able to be operated with the heel whilst the accelerator pedal could be simultaneously pressed with the toe. The technique is carried out in modern cars by operating the brake with the toe area, while rocking the foot across to the right to operate the throttle with the right side of the foot. With practice, it becomes possible to smoothly and independently operate both pedals with one foot. The technique is common in all forms of motorsport," I must admit it's something I do need to practice as it seems more important in the Westfield than it has in the Tin Tops I've had. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benedwards64 Posted February 1, 2016 Share Posted February 1, 2016 Whilst I don't double declutch, I do tend to H&T as a matter of course in both my daily Impreza and the Westfield. I find that my aproach varies with the car's pedal setup and the pair of shoes that I'm wearing, but generally the most effective way for me (and my small girlie feet) is to 'roll' my foot on the brake pedal and press the accelerator with the right-hand edge of my foot. Sounds a bit weird I guess, but I can now do it pretty much every time under hard or soft braking without affecting the pressure on the brake pedal. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamR Posted February 1, 2016 Share Posted February 1, 2016 you can do it the way you do I think heel and toe is a slight misnomer generally the most effective way for me (and my small girlie feet) is to 'roll' my foot on the brake pedal and press the accelerator with the right-hand edge of my foot. Agreed with all of the above Anything from no ankle rotation to about 45 degree rotation works fine. It's just down to personal preference and pedal setup. And just because it's a good excuse to post this video... (Here's another less interesting example I filmed a while back: YouTube) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John K Posted February 1, 2016 Author Share Posted February 1, 2016 ... "The name stems from pre-WW2 vehicles where the accelerator pedal was in the centre (between the clutch on the left and the foot brake to the right). The brake was able to be operated with the heel whilst the accelerator pedal could be simultaneously pressed with the toe. The technique is carried out in modern cars by operating the brake with the toe area, while rocking the foot across to the right to operate the throttle with the right side of the foot. With practice, it becomes possible to smoothly and independently operate both pedals with one foot. The technique is common in all forms of motorsport," ... So, I have been dislocating bits of me trying to do something that was only possible in Brunell's era... ... the most effective way for me (and my small girlie feet) is to 'roll' my foot on the brake pedal and press the accelerator with the right-hand edge of my foot. Sounds a bit weird I guess, but I can now do it pretty much every time under hard or soft braking without affecting the pressure on the brake pedal. EXACTLY how I do it. I know modern syncro is great, but I grew up driving a manual P6 and a DDc on the down shift was mandatory... Try the DDc on the down shift, its utterly pointless but hugely satisfying when you perfectly nail it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John K Posted February 1, 2016 Author Share Posted February 1, 2016 LOL, that is what I love about this forum, I come here admitting to being a big girl and find out I'm actually normal..! And bless you Adam for the Senna video. 1, he's a driving God, (sorry 'was'...) and 2, and it seems that me and Ben are doing it the right way... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benedwards64 Posted February 1, 2016 Share Posted February 1, 2016 Haha, well it's encouraging to know I've self-taught the 'correct' method I'll admit I'm young enough to have never needed to DDC. Will have to give it a go 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John K Posted February 1, 2016 Author Share Posted February 1, 2016 On a modern car, all a DDc does is take away any transmission 'shunt' as all the bits spin up to speed. It just means when you roll the power on, it is silky smooth. And I was taught smooth driving is fast driving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Posted February 1, 2016 Share Posted February 1, 2016 I toe and 'heel' with the side of my foot, as above, in the Westy fairly naturally, but it took some practice and attention to the pedal setup. Never really understood the need to do it in the tin-top. I tried a couple of times because I thought it might be useful to practice for the Westy but found the pedal relationship wrong and the servo-assisted brakes too sensitive. Practically head-butted the windscreen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howsafe Workwear and Safety Equipment Posted February 1, 2016 Share Posted February 1, 2016 I have tried and failed in the past and decided that at my level of general driving ability it was adding in an unnecessary complication Size 12's don't help either 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Man On The Clapham Omnibus Posted February 1, 2016 Share Posted February 1, 2016 Like so many of you I use the rolling foot method at all times. Also, like some, I do not actually double declutch in normal 'smooth' driving but simply rev-match. On track, though, the full procedure makes for slicker, faster down-shifts and avoids the sudden -dragging' of re-engaging the clutch on approach to a corner. In that scenario the engine is pulled up to speed by the road wheels/transmission and can cause loss of rear grip at a critical time. The Westfield pedals are perfectly arranged for DDC as is my X Type. My Z3, though, has a high brake pedal which can lead to sudden braking as the side of the foot feels for the throttle pedal. On the track with the Z3 it works better because the brake pedal movement is heavier and it brings the pedal down to throttle pedal level. I had a BMC 'A' Series Midget for some years and that had a non-synchromesh first gear - as did all my cars before that. That needed the full DDC procedure for getting down into first on the move. In fully non-synchro cars in days of yore, I am told, DDC was used in up-shifts too. The same technique as down shifts but without the throttle blip. This served to stop gears from spinning in the 'box and clashing on engagement. Naturally even I am too young to have known this first hand! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KugaWestie Posted February 1, 2016 Share Posted February 1, 2016 I like that video of Ayrton Interesting to see how he dabs at the throttle through the bends Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6carjon Posted February 1, 2016 Share Posted February 1, 2016 I do heel and toe method using the foot rolling technique above . I do also left foot brake which I do more of in daily driving. Find it great for low powered cars where you need time for the revs to build. Careful with modern cars esp vw type as it's a noseplant on the windscreen first time ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dombanks Posted February 1, 2016 Share Posted February 1, 2016 Wasn't synchromesh invented back in imperial black and white days to remove the need for that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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