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Newbie Hi...


Matt_F

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Hello - Names Matt, and I'm about to embark on a slightly different kind of westfield build...

 

Have taken delivery of a complete rolling chassis and we're about to start bolting it all together, although it now turns out that I need to educate myself on ford engines, gearboxes and diffs.  (I'm a Porsche/BMW/Mazda/Race man myself)

 

So we have, as far as I am away, a Westfield Chassis, for a Duratec.  Although it now seems my ST170 Duratec engine that is sat on a pallet in the corner of the workshop isn't what I need.  Damn.  Looks like a need a Zetec from speaking to the helpful people at westfield, so thats a bummer.  Wishing I had gone for the S2000 version now instead.

 

So I just need to work out what I need engine wise, gearbox and diff wise, dont really fancy old sierra stuff, but hey ho, looks like thats what I am stuck with!

 

Moral here is don't let someone else dictate what you order :d

 

Ford engines - talk to me...

 

Thanks!

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Welcome.

 

I don't think the chassis is any different between Duratec and Zetec (and ST170 is a Zetec!) - it will be the engine mounts.

 

So either new/swap engine mounts or get a 'real' Duratec - which at this stage of the build is probably the better option:

 

Firstly, Duratec engined cars are a little more desirable than Zetecs and also because (afaik) they are easier to tune to a reasonable level - ie 200bhp plus.

 

Nothing against ST170's - in fact I am going to put one in mine over winter in all probability - but I am already down the Zetec route, so makes more sense for me.

 

The main difference to a Westy is the exhaust exit - (left Zetec - right Duratec) but again, at the rolling chassis stage (unless it has been built previously and has had engine fitted etc before) - you shouldn't have any holes in the tub anyway.

 

There are many MUCH more knowledgeable folk on here than me - and no doubt someone else will be along to offer up a bit more info :)

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Apparently yes its all in the mounts, so thats good.

 

We have the ST170 engine on a pallet, (says Duratec on it, honest) we have no engine mounts, and a completely un powder coated, new never built chassis.

 

The ST170 I have would make the exhaust exit pax side, so can I make the ST170 work?  I was told is a massive load of work, have no issue fabbing stuff, but don't want to throw silly money at it for a marginal gain over a well trodden path.  Which is the engine I can run a block spacer / liners to a 2.3?

 

Zetec Duratec - so confusing. 

 

If I could fit a BMW S54 I'd be fine.

 

Thanks :d

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If I could fit a BMW S54 I'd be fine.

 

 

 

...you need a GKD Legend...

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Apparently yes its all in the mounts, so thats good.

 

We have the ST170 engine on a pallet, (says Duratec on it, honest) we have no engine mounts, and a completely un powder coated, new never built chassis.

 

The ST170 I have would make the exhaust exit pax side, so can I make the ST170 work?  I was told is a massive load of work, have no issue fabbing stuff, but don't want to throw silly money at it for a marginal gain over a well trodden path.  Which is the engine I can run a block spacer / liners to a 2.3?

 

Zetec Duratec - so confusing. 

 

If I could fit a BMW S54 I'd be fine.

 

Thanks :d

 

Can't see why the ST170 wouldn't work in any Westfield modular chassis - who told you it was a 'massive' amount of work?

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The guy at westfield - unless he had the wrong end of the stick.  Apparently most the parts would be custom??

 

From what I understand, the ST170 (from reading mainly on here) is a Zetec R ?

 

The exhaust exits on the pax / left side, I'd just need a mount set and gear box to suit.

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Yeah ford put Duratec ST and what not on zetecs, they also put Zetec on the back of duratec engined mondeos for a while as that was the trim level - was a real PITA as customer would ask for plugs for a zetec (by reading the badge on the back of the car) and they are much longer than duratec plugs - needless to say you can see what happened if they wern't offered up against the old parts!

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Right.

 

A lot of this depends on where you are starting from. So what are you getting exactly?

 

The ST170 is a Zetec with a few tweaks by Mr Ford including Variable Valve Timing (VVT) - so if you want to use one, you need to be able to 'properly' control the VVT. That can be done with a decent modern ECU like Omex 710 or DTA s80 among others, but not an Omex 600 that the factory usually supply. You can add on a £200 VVT controller though if the ECU you have/get does not FULLY support VVT (by that I mean control it correctly rather than switch it at certain revs).

 

The ST170 will 'fit' into the Westfield exactly like any Blacktop Zetec (Zetec R as you say) but will require different engine mounts to the Duratec.

 

But if you are getting 'everything' needed to fit a Duratec, inc inlet and exhaust manifolds as well as a sump and bellhousing, then you are looking at a lot of things to change.

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The thing to bear in mind when selecting an engine and maybe not ever having built a kit before (like the point I was at a year or so ago) is that the engine is the cheap bit!

 

So, if your initial engine has been purchased and you think you might want to go a different route, then it is an insignificant loss to sell that engine and buy another at the very early stage - that is because it is all the bits that are required to make it run and work in a RWD configuration will cost the real money (like £2k or more) and will often be very different.

 

In that respect, going from a fully fitted & running Zetec to a fully fitted & running Duratec is a massive change and lots of money - but starting with a Zetec or Duratec the cost to get it all up and running is similar for either engine and the initial cost of each bare engine is also similar.

 

So it all depends how much of the £1000's worth of ancillaries you already have as to which is the best route.

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You have to bear in mind, that now a days many, many of the factories customers, both for full cars and for kits have come from non engineering (or "trades") backgrounds and have grown up on a diet of modern cars with sealed and semi-sealed components that are swap out to fix, rather than strip down and make/buy new bits for.

 

Thats not to belittle anyone, you just have to understand who a lot of the customers are. So what might seem easy, in terms of fabricating mounts, modifying parts or even just hunting down conversion parts from a few different suppliers to some of us, would be a major turn off to some buyers. And yes, for them, turn a simple but rewarding bolt together job into a bewildering undertaking.

 

My very first kit from Westfield, was for an XE build, a "semi" supported engine, in that they could supply a few parts, like engine mounts, alternator mount etc. But I was warned from the start, there'd be no engine coverage in my build manual, more limited tech support on the engine side etc. They'd help where they could, but it just wasn't a kit they sold.

 

As long as your happy to go your own way somewhat, and you'll find plenty of help and experience on here with the ST engine install, you'll find the factory as supportive as can be! You just need to accept that some questions, they won't be able to answer so well.

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All good information - thankyou all!

 

So far all I have are parts for a rolling chassis, so thats chassis, uprights, dampers, brakes, pedals, rack etc.  Nothing has been bought for the engine at all.

 

I have (from ebay) a palleted ST170 engine, with all of its ancilliaries, which I really don't mind throwing, and starting again - if it makes it easier in the short term.

 

So - I guess you could consider me at the starting gate, no gearbox, water plumbing, ECU etc, so I guess I can stick with the ST170 engine.  

 

Which is a Zetec - so if I order mounts for a zetec, I'm on a winner correct?

 

VVT - yes, understood.  I've actually got a DTA S80 on the shelf for another project, have used Omex before, but mainly Motec / DTA

 

I guess you could say, I know what I am doing - Just not genned up on my ford engines, type 9 gearboxes and sierra diffs!

 

Throttle bodies - no problem - is there an exhaust manifold about for a RWD ST170? or is that another fab up job...

 

I am very excited about this build.  I've sat in the chassis lots of times, but its still on its side in the workshop.  Looking slightly sad with its surface rust as its uncoated.

 

Good fun ahead I think :d

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In that case ST170 is very doable.

You want factory zetec engine mounts as they will fit the St as it is a zetec. Same goes for inlet and exhaust, all blacktop zetec parts will fit.

S80 ECU should handle vvt but that all depends on you mapper.

Gearbox is easy as zetec uses same bolt spacing as usual type 9 pinto fitment used on Sierra's etc. Ratios aren't great in 1st but that can be sorted.

You'll need a Mondeo mk1 clutch and an escort flywheel with a Capri spigot bearing - all STD stuff.

It's all been done many times so plenty of information to help.

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Matt, welcome to the club and the delights of ownership. Save yourself the dillemma and just get a cross flow.... Quick, sounds great and rust proof.... :-)

Best wishes

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CVH - good choice ;)

 

Excellent - so that saves me relisting it on ebay.  Thankyou.

 

Mapper - not a problem there, whats this about an MT75 gearbox?

 

I'm going to spend a few (many) hours reading around on the forum, so i don't end up with the normal, your a noob, use the search comments :d

 

But for the help I receive, I will be happy to help in return, in lots of mechanical ways :d

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